Category: Saturday Interview

Tayo Douglas, the General Secretary of Oduduwa Proclaiming Group, is a legal practitioner and activist. In this interview with GBENGA ADERANTI, he talks about insecurity in the South West, how to end it and why the use of militancy to fight herders may not be an option. Excerpts:

Herdsmen were known to have lived with their Yoruba hosts peacefully in the past, but that is no longer the case. What do you think could have been responsible for the rather hostile relationship between them now?

First and foremost, we need to differentiate between the herdsmen that were living peacefully with their hosts in the past and those who were itinerant in those days, going from one place to the other without causing problem or giving their hosts any problem.

You will agree with me that even in our elementary history at the primary school in the olden days, we were taught that there were two types of Fulanis, namely the town Fulanis and the nomadic Fulanis. The town Fulanis are full blooded Nigerians and they have been living peacefully with all other Nigerians from time immemorial, and in particular with their host communities in the south western part of Nigeria without any let or hindrance. In fact, if you came in contact with any one of them in those days, you will agree with me that there wasn’t any language barrier between some of them and Yoruba communities, as they spoke impeccable Yoruba too.

They all understood the dynamics of everybody’s culture and they have been living without having problems with any community. They were so organised in those days that you would not find their cattle straying into people’s farms and destroying them at will, unlike what the present marauders are doing. In fact, they didn’t even come out into the open. They were much restricted to their huts in the bush while only their wives came out to sell cheese and other stuff they call ‘fura and nunu’, that is yoghurt. Who then are the herdsmen that are currently perpetrating this evil in the country?

They are foreigners from Chad, Niger, Cameroun, Cote d’Ivoire, Senegal, Ghana, Libya, Guinea, and so on, who have come to maim and kill Nigerians, and in particular the south westerners, under the disguise of seeking pasture to graze. They have a mission and purpose, and that is to come and wreak havoc, and, to a large extent, annex our lands in the southern part of the country.

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I will tell you this fact: in the past, the nomads, like you have rightly described them as itinerant herders, were never stationary and had no business settling down in any town they passed through while grazing, unlike what obtains now. Then, you could only come across them once in a year, and that was when there was drought or harmattan. They would migrate from their various countries in droves, looking for where they could graze along the whole lines of West Africa. Hardly would you find them coming into the towns of any country they passed through, let alone sleeping there for a day. They moved round the clock for the whole year in the good old days without building abodes anywhere, hence the word nomadic.

But what do we have today? The so-called nomads are no longer itinerant or nomadic but have now assumed permanent status like full citizens and are claiming the same rights as Nigerian citizens without any inhibition or any let or hindrance. That is why I say there is a purpose why they are here in the country, particularly in the south western part of Nigerian villages and towns. They have now come, maiming, killing, raping our women, kidnapping our people and, above all, receiving ransom from the victims’ relations effortlessly. I am very sure that very soon, we are going to unearth why this mass influx of these foreign herders into the south western part of Nigeria. But in the interim, let it be known that they are not here to graze any cattle; they are here to perpetrate and carry out an evil agenda.

Many have argued that the herdsmen would not have made a headway without the connivance of some Yoruba leaders and traditional rulers. How do you react to that?

That is very wrong for anybody to say or reason at all. For your information, I shudder to say that these groups of herders we are discussing now are invaders and aggressors who do not need anybody’s consent or concurrence before they attack any land or wreak havoc. How can any traditional ruler or leader worth his salt allow a foreigner to attack his subjects’ land or communal lands and as well kidnap, maim, kill and rape the traditional ruler’s subjects? No doubt, there are some bad eggs that will do anything for money or any other infraction, but not at this level of annexation of a whole community by marauders. No traditional ruler would keep his eyes wide open and allow foreigners to maim and kill his subjects without any restriction.

Instead of blaming the state of insecurity on herdsmen, have you bothered to consider an explanation given by the Federal Government to the effect that some of the Boko Haram members driven from the North East are the ones disguising as herders?

The two are quite different as far as I am concerned. And that statement credited to the federal government can never be the truth. For the avoidance of doubt, I spent some parts of my life in the north and I also attended school there. We must try to distinguish between the various problems happening in the country today; we should not lump them together. The Boko Haram issue is a different ball game entirely. The Boko Haram members as we were told, are reputed to be thugs who had been kept and fed by a certain former governor in the Northeast, and when the party was over, they turned the arms and ammunition with which they were once equipped and fortified against the state, blowing up churches and killing people on the streets, market and crowded areas without having recourse to whether those people being killed are Christians or Muslims.

They are the only ones who know why they are fighting. But definitely, their own purpose is not the same with the purpose of the marauding herders. Like I said earlier on, the marauding herders are here to kill, maim and destroy, rape our people and take over our land and possibly foist on us their religious belief. I can say without any equivocation and ambivalence that when it comes to a boiling point, we will resist the taking over of our land with the last drop of our blood. We will not be kowtowed just like that.

What would your organisation do to stop these herders in the South West?

We have been trying to tell our leaders, particularly the traditional rulers and the governors of the Southwest, that they must not fold their arms in the face of this wanton destruction of lives and property by the herders. We will continue to drum it to them that majority of the herders they see today are not Nigerians by any standard, and it would be a shame if under their nose foreigners are coming to wreak havoc on their territories and on their subjects without any justification or provocation.

They should understand by now that if they refuse to do anything or being proactive about it, a day is coming when they too would be driven out of their palaces by herdsmen, and it has started happening in some areas now. Our traditional rulers cannot pretend that they don’t know that there is evil in Yoruba land today. They cannot continue to pretend not to know that most of our lands are about to be annexed if not already partially annexed.

The Onimeko of Imeko town in Ogun State said the other day that the Oduduwa tomato factory located in Imeko has been annexed by the marauding herdsmen. Have any of the south west governors whose patrimony is being reported levied and frittered away by the herdsmen ever come out to issue any statement to reassure their subjects that their government is doing anything about this sacrilegious and desecration activities of the marauders? Up till now, nobody has spoken in condemnation of all the allegations made by the Onimeko. That is what has been happening over the years. A situation where we continue to say we are one and some people have by their actions continue to say we are not one and equal, and that they are our superior.

If this continues, don’t you foresee Yoruba people resorting to self-help, making militant groups in the Southwest come to the scene again?

First and foremost, it is very important to say it now that the Yoruba people are very sophisticated and mature in the way they do things and handle affairs of importance. This perhaps is what others have failed to read in them and so  labelled them as cowards, albeit, maliciously and in derision. Hence it has always been dilatory in jumping into any decision.

Here in Oduduwa Proclaiming Group, for instance, our memberships are drawn particularly from the academia, professional world and highly educated individuals. I say this with every sense of decency that we will never do anything that will run afoul of the laws of the land and also we will not do anything that will breed civil insurrection in the society. Our aim is to use the instrument of law to straighten the ills of the society and to also use our God given intellect to galvanie the law to respect and protect our inalienable rights within the entity called Nigeria.

Our aim is to constitute ourselves as a social engineer to structure the polity so that there will be equal rights as well as justice to the greatest number of people. That is what we are out to proclaim and defend. All we are saying is that the territory of Nigeria must be defended against external and internal aggressors. Our lives as citizens of Nigeria are quite superior to others and therefore must be protected along with our properties. If it will take us going to court to enforce this protection and proclamation, we will not hesitate to do so.

Bayelsa State Commissioner for Information and Orientation, Daniel Iworiso-Markson, undertakes a review of the administration of Governor Seriake Dickson, explaining the changes he has brought to the state in his two terms as governor. He also speaks on the resignation of the Chairman of the Bayelsa State Independent Electoral Commission and the exploits of Bayelsa pupils sent on scholarships in foreign countries, among other issues. He spoke with MIKE ODIEGWU.

Governor Dickson recently boasted that he would hand over to a PDP governor and indeed to a member of his Restoration Government. Do you think this was a democratic comment?

Well, if you know the governor, you will come to realise that he is one politician that is so determined. He is a politician of conviction. The governor believes strongly that there is no opposition in this state. So when he made the statement, he knew what he was talking about.

On handing over power to somebody within the Restoration Government, I think the governor stated the obvious. Frankly speaking, nobody in his shoes would want to hand over power to somebody he is not comfortable with, basically on the critical concern of continuity. He will want somebody who understands the philosophy, policies and programmes of the administration; somebody who can basically carry on with the legacies of this government. And I think that is true of any serious leader. Let us not be pretentious about it. It is the truth, and I think that was what he meant by that comment.

I think it boils down to his concern and clear perceptions about sustaining the current momentum. And there are a number of very qualified and competent persons within the government that can fit that bill. That is a matter for the governor and the political leaders, and, of course, the people will decide in a democratic way in due time. I think what is important in answer to your question is the process which defines democracy and legitimacy.

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Bayelsa does not need anyone who thinks the governorship is his birthright. Such aspirants surreptitiously sponsor media campaigns to run down every sitting administration. If they are not the ones in the saddle, any other person is not good enough. The man Bayelsa needs must have a clear blueprint on how to develop the state with well-articulated and practical short, medium and long term goals and projections. Somebody who will create the required environment for job creation and positive engagement with the youths. Somebody who will further the great legacies of the Dickson administration and not seek to destroy them. A team player and not a wheeler-dealer politician who will mortgage the state’s interest on the altar of personal aggrandizement. The state no longer needs a governor that does not have a zero-tolerance for violent politics or cultism. Enough of the bloodshed arising from cult and gang rivalries. The streets of Yenagoa must not be allowed to be watered with the blood of the youths whose patrons are politicians. Bayelsa is indeed in search of another statesman at the helm of its affairs.

It is only a few moths to the administration of Governor Seriake Dickson. How do you think he will be remembered?

I think it is a consensus that Governor Seriake Dickson has been phenomenal in his leadership and performance in the last seven and a half years, a record that will be difficult to beat in the nearest future. When I say consensus, I do not mean those of us who are privileged to work with him in the Restoration Government. I am talking about people who are not in government. We have our own mechanism of getting a feedback from the public, and the consensus is that it will be very difficult to have another governor like Governor Dickson in Bayelsa State.

And that is really the challenge, especially now that we are in a transition period. I am aware that people are ruminating on the issue of that discerning person who can fit into the shoes of this unusual man of history. Obviously, he will be leaving behind very big shoes. It is clear that he has demystified governance, making it possible for our people to see that governance is not magic but astute leadership, commitment and excellence.

Governor Dickson’s approach to governance and some of the ways he has carried out his duties as governor has opened our eyes to a kind of consciousness that the business of governance can actually work so well with efficiency. And you begin to see policies and programmes that are directly targeted at improving the lives of the common man. One thing you cannot take away from Governor Dickson is the fact that he’s a hand-on leader. Little wonder the state has made a lot of progress in the last seven and a half years.

Seriously the thinking and belief of discerning Bayelsans is that Governor Dickson has moved development in Bayelsa State 20 years ahead. You can go out there and find out. Bayelsa and Bayelsans had never had it as good as in the last seven and a half years. And this is not by any way putting down the previous governments. The point I’m making is that if all others had come into government with the same push, passion, dedication, commitment and seriousness, placing service above self and giving more attention to the business of governance rather than one’s own wellbeing, our state would have become Eldorado.

What we are witnessing now is like a revolution, and it is not one revolution about governance you are reading about in a textbook; it is happening before our eyes, and it is amazing that this administration has achieved so much within this time frame. From this standpoint, I think the need for governors to serve two terms has also clearly shown. Whereas you can achieve a whole lot in four years, you can achieve a whole lot more in eight years, and the evidence abounds everywhere with what the governor has done. And for some of us who are privileged to have served in this Restoration Government from the very beginning, it is humbling to see that you’re part of history and part of a process that has improved lives tremendously.

How would you say that Dickson’s policies and programmes have impacted on the lives of the people?

Let me give you a story. There was a young girl who was part of the Lincoln Scholars. I was in that hall that day when they were holding the sent-forth as it were, leaving Bayelsa for the United States, and I spotted her with her mother. The mother didn’t look like an urban resident. She was a villager but she came that way. And that was the attraction for me. I immediately took interest in her and met with her.

I asked her if she had ever travelled out of the country and she replied no and that it was, in fact, her first time in Yenagoa, the state capital, from the community where she came from. But here was a young girl without any connection whatsoever to anybody in government. She wrote the test like every Bayelsan and passed and became eligible for scholarship. And lo and behold, this young girl, who had never travelled anywhere in Bayelsa before, would be going to America for the first time in pursuit of university education.

You know, looking at that story, it is amazing. Now the Lincoln Scholars have all graduated and they are back. Interestingly, 80 per cent of them returned with first class. Again, a number of them who returned with first class have all gotten scholarships, not from the government this time, but from institutions in America and around the world where they are now pursuing master’s degrees and Ph.D programmes. That is what one of the policies of Governor Dickson in the critical area of education has done. Now for me, that’s the greatest achievement that this government has done, having real impact on the lives of the people.

Now what that education has done in the life of that young girl and indeed her family members and her own generation is unquantifiable. It is significant because education is the weapon that can be used by any society to fight poverty, to eradicate disease and all the ugly ills in our society, and that is where Governor Dickson has really made a major impact. Over N80 billion spent, and this is money well spent, money directed at the people.

Look at the model schools. Look at the children in those model schools. These children are comparable to those you find in King’s College and all the Ivy-League schools anywhere in the world. They are exposed to quality education, a compulsory model boarding school, brought together from across the state. You know the implication when they are exposed to the best kind of education at that level. And a number of them represent the future aspirations of this state. These children are the ones who will give us the hope and the great future we desire.

Mark my words, with the kind of investment Governor Dickson has made in education, and hopefully with his successor intensifying on his legacy, Bayelsa will soon become one of the leading exporters of human capital to the world. Bayelsa will be celebrated as one of the states where you find rich resource of human capital. The reason I say so is that a number of the Lincoln Scholars and several of those who got scholarship in masters and Ph.D programmes have broken records to the extent that a number of those schools abroad now think that Bayelsans are specially wired and gifted academically and so they are poached all over the world. A number of them from Lincoln are now working with major IT companies like Apple, Google, and so on, doing remarkable things. Now these are children who otherwise would have ended up in the creeks as militants or, at best, they will look at militants as their role models. But these children are today encouraging other children.

There is a girl in Ijaw National Academy who said on camera that she was going to beat the record of Justice, another student who graduated from that school. The girl is now in Germany on scholarship. She came tops in JAMB and WAEC and from Ijaw National Academy; a school that started before our very eyes as a centre of excellence and molding of future leaders as a deliberate action by Governor Dickson, with ability to compete nationally and internationally is now making headlines in academic performance. Today, Ijaw National Academy is producing champions academically, like scholars in Ivy-League schools in Germany, Britain and the United States.

By that young girl’s action, she has become a role model. That is the kind of thing we are talking about. Now they are looking at a role model in Justice. Her exemplary academic performance, you know, they are changing the narrative, and that’s the bottom line. Government is using education to change the narrative of the state. A state that used to be reckoned with as notorious for militancy has changed to a place where great things are happening, and the world is taking note. Invariably the understanding is there that society is largely made by human capital, not necessarily by natural resource.

Governor Dickson has taken some very bold but sometimes tough and painful decisions to create and enhance development. And that is what governance is all about, so long as they help to improve the common good. And the story of leadership and excellence is the same in infrastructure, health, agriculture where aquaculture is priority, and other life-changing projects across the state. Of course, you are aware of the airport in Amassoma going into full operations in a matter of weeks.

Dennis Amachree, who was as an Assistant Director of the State Security Service(SSS), now Department of State Services(DSS), has seen it all. After retiring from the service, he ventured into industrial security. In this interview with PAUL UKPABIO, Amachree, who studied abroad and served last at the Lagos Command of the SSS, tells the story of his bitter-sweet experience in the security service, which he recommends for “citizens who have a passion for patriotism and nationalism”. He also proffers solutions to the present security challenges facing the country. Excerpts:

In what ways would you say that your early background influenced the person that you are today?

When you say early background, I believe you are referring to my years in the service to the nation? Before joining the Service, my teenage years had been greatly influenced by my activities in the Boy Scouts of Nigeria. We learnt to be self-reliant, citizenship and leadership. Those years shaped my life. Then came the Service for national security. In those years, I came to know Nigeria by travelling far and wide within the country, which finally molded me into a patriotic Nigerian.

As a child, was education mandatory for you?

In our days, education was so mandatory that if you skip school, the headmaster will send some boys to find you and bring you to school by force. When they bring you back, be ready for 12 strokes of the cane. You simply cannot afford to come late to school. Education was a priority and parents will go to any extent to ensure that their wards are in school.

Who would you say determined your eventual life career?

That is simple and clear. God Almighty determined and directed my eventual life career. I went to graduate school and studied Public Communications. My plan was to start a public relations firm, but God directed me into a profession that secures lives and property.

 Where did you grow up and what memories of childhood do you recall?

I was born in Zaria, in present day Kaduna State. My dad was an instructor at the Nigerian Military School (NMS). That gave me the opportunity to speak Hausa fluently. After my father’s retirement, we all relocated to Port Harcourt. I was sent to our home town of Buguma to live with my grandmother and attend primary school. That gave me another opportunity to learn a second language, Kalabari. It was a blessing in disguise. The experiences were many. I learnt to swim in the rivers of the Niger Delta. We went fishing in the mangroves and other extra-curricular activities. Growing up was memorable fun.

 Your educational background?

I got my West African School Certificate from the Kalabari National College, Buguma. Bachelor of Science degree from the University of Wisconsin and a Master’s degree from the California State University. I later attended the Wharton Business School for a certificate course for security executives.

Tell us about your journey to the State Security Service.

After my education in the United States of America, it was natural for me and most of my mates at that time to come home. Our objective then was to get educated and head back home to Nigeria, unlike these days where people go to the United States with the main objective of over-staying their visas.

I came home and completed the mandatory National Youth Service and was thrown into the job market. I came to the realisation that unlike in the USA where I can get a job based on merit, the story was different here. The employment market operates on the basis of a referral system. If you don’t know someone who knows someone, you can’t get a job.

It was very frustrating, going out every day, checking on offices where I dropped my resume,  only to be told “we will get back to you” and they never did. At a point, I wanted to pack my baggage and return to the USA, when I met a God-sent elder from my hometown who advised me to apply to the Nigerian Security Organisation (NSO). I have always admired the American Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) and this was like a golden opportunity.

At that time, the General Muhammadu Buhari military administration wanted to inject graduates into the NSO and there was a mass recruitment exercise going on. I applied, was tested, interviewed, vetted, employed and sent to the Security Academy as an officer cadet. That wasv where the journey started and I have never regretted it.

How did you rise to the top? Was it easy and smooth?

In a structured system like the SSS, performance is key in climbing the ladder. Specialist courses are common and as you attend such courses, you also have the opportunity to specialise. As you accept responsibilities, your performance can make or mar you. Discipline and loyalty are key in surviving in a system like ours.

I served as Assistant Director, Travel Control (responsible for all the seaports, airports and land borders). In that job, I travelled around the country and realised that we need to do more to effectively secure our international borders. For now, the borders remain porous, which is worsened by the ECOWAS free movement of persons in the sub-region.

As exciting as it was, the job was also inherently dangerous. But on the flip side, we were trained to be patriotic Nigerians and that placed my colleagues and I above ethno-religious bickering in the country. When we were recruited, we were five from each state of the federation and till today, those of us still alive see ourselves as brothers and sisters. Where you came from or religious affiliation does not matter. What was important is the national assignment of keeping Nigeria secure.

 Can you recall moments when you were in life threatening situations during your career?

My first duty posting after graduation from the academy was     executive protection, what we called Very Important Persons Protection Unit. I loved being a ‘bodyguard’ as we were always well-dressed and loaded with protective clothing and equipment; and mixed freely with top government personalities in-country and from foreign countries. It was a good job, with a lot of travels but the downside of it remains the constant tension anytime you are on duty. Anybody may want to embarrass or assassinate your principal and your job is to protect that VIP even at the risk of losing your life.

Other situations that were life threatening were during attempted and actual military coups, because the NSO or later the SSS, was responsible for the protection of the Head of State or President, as the case may be. Coupists always target the protective details, in order to get to the principal. Such situations could be deadly tricky and I have been in two of such situations in Dodan Barracks.

 What is the difference between SSS and DSS?

SSS stands for the State Security Service, which is the official name of the Internal Security Service. When the Nigerian Security Organisation (NSO) was split into three — the National Intelligence Agency (NIA) and the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) were formed. DSS which stands for Department of State Services was later adopted by the SSS at the advent of democratic government, to project an image of a friendlier Service.  It was realised then that many citizens dreaded the name SSS. One thing is, however, very clear; the DSS remains the most patriotic and national interest driven security agency in Nigeria.

Now that you have retired from the State Security Service, do you miss the place?

We served Nigeria our country and will continue to serve as the need arises. The place is home to both serving and retired staff.

 Do you have any regrets having worked there?

No regrets at all. It is an honorable and elite service any Nigerian who happens to work there should be proud of. It is highly recommended for citizens who have a passion for patriotism and nationalism to enlist and serve.

What was the turning point that led you into private security business?

I got enlisted in the Service during the military era. In 1999 at the advent of democratic government in Nigeria, there was the need for security officers with government background in the industrial security sector. I was head-hunted by an oil and gas services company to be their Security Manager. It was like a sense of adventure to explore what happens in the private sector and I never regretted that move. It opened a new vista in my career as a security professional.

 What were the initial challenges when you decided to go into industrial security?

The world of industrial security presented its challenges in the form of the objectives that drive our operations. In the Service, we were more concerned with national security, while in industrial security, we became more concerned with asset protection and loss prevention. It was easy to adjust, especially if you are ready to learn and apply the difference.

 How about your spouse; was it love at first sight?

My advice here is that those striving  or looking for a life partner, should sit back, think and decide on marrying only their best friends. There could be lust at first sight, but definitely not love at first sight. If you have a robust friendship with your wife, you are definitely going to last for a long time.

 As a security expert, what is your take about the state of insecurity in Nigeria; the rampaging herdsmen; the border conflicts that leave many homeless; the militants in the creeks  the activities of kidnappers?

As a security professional, the general state of insecurity in the country is a very serious concern to me and my colleagues in the intelligence community. I can assure you that the law enforcement and security agencies are working tirelessly to crack these threats. I will also appeal to Nigerians to see these issues as everyone’s to solve, not just the security agencies. We have to come together and fight this thing. It’s our fight.

 As a top security expert, what specific solutions do you proffer to the security challenges?

There are many possible solutions to the threats that the country faces today. The security agencies are working on these solutions, but will need  concerted efforts and support from the three arms of government to conquer these problems. There must be a resolute political will to solve this problem. The security agencies need all the equipment, training and motivation necessary to do the job. Of great importance also is the judiciary that needs to expedite action on the cases of arrested terrorists and kidnappers. This will serve as an assurance to Nigerians that something is being done and we are winning.

 Any special hobbies?

I have two special hobbies: voracious reading and man-watching. Man-watching as in watching people’s non-verbal behaviours. These actions are louder than voices and reveals more about a person. In our present global village, there are fake news, as there are pretenders and fake persons. However, if you know how to watch people, their non-verbal attitudes and behaviours will tell you more  about them than what they say to you.

Were you into sports while you were young?

I grew up as a swimmer, swimming in Asari-Toru in the creeks of the Niger Delta. It was competitive among the teenagers but not for a trophy.

If you are not what you are today, what else would you have loved to be?

I don’t have any regrets being a security professional, but if I am not, I would go back to my first love, which is Public Relations.

 What is the most challenging aspect of your job?

Unexpected outcomes. Investigations is my specialisation and I am trained to go into it with an open mind. Professionally, there should be no pre-conceived outcomes. In most cases, the findings of most investigations present unexpected outcomes. Also, when intelligence is disseminated, some political consumers will take political decisions on it to the chagrin of the intelligence officer. These are challenges that define our type of business.

Are you fulfilled?

Yes, I am. I have experienced both public and industrial security at the top management levels. I have mentored a lot of security professionals and I feel fulfilled seeing them excel in their various security specialisations. I am a Fellow of three professional security institutes and was awarded the national honour of Member of the Order of the Niger, MON.

What does the future look like for you?

The future squarely rests in the hand of my heavenly Father and Controller – The Almighty God. My Bible tells me that He knew me before I was born, knows me very well now and knows my future, which is in His hands. So, I trust Him to direct me as He deems fit.

Moments after the renowned scholar and ex- Minister of External Affairs, Prof. Bolaji Akinyemi, left Chief MKO Abiola’s sprawling mansion in Ikeja, Lagos, that night, the man who won the famed June 12,1993 presidential election, was arrested. The house had already been surrounded by security forces. It was the last time he saw Chief Abiola.In this interview with PAUL UKPABIO and BIODUN ADEYEWA, the elder statesman and professor of Political Science relives his last moments with the late business mogul-turned-politician. He also tells us what June 12 means in present day Nigeria and the lifestyle he has chosen at 77. Excerpts of the very interesting interview:

We just had the anniversary of June 12. Can you reflect a little on that political date in our history, many years after?

June 12 over the years as a movement has become different things. Actually, we cannot talk about the actualisation of June 12 in the sense of MKO Abiola being president. But his election has been recognised by he(MKO) being given the Grand Commander of the Federal Republic, which is an honour reserved for  only people who have been heads of state. I can only think of one exception up till now and that is Chief Obafemi Awolowo on whom it was conferred by Alhaji Shehu Shagari. So, the conferment of the GCFR on him has actually actualised June 12.

What else does the date mean to you?

June 12 has also become an embodiment of civilian rule. And that we have had since 1999. You will notice that I didn’t say an embodiment of democracy; that is because we have had civilian rule but we have not had democracy. So, that is the third leg to me of June 12. Nigeria being a democratic country is a work in progress. We don’t have a democracy in Nigeria. We have civilian rule. We don’t have a democracy because we have never really had an uncontested, free, fair, transparent election. I was a member of the electoral committee that was set up by President Yar’Adua under Justice Uwais, former CJN and Yar’Adua told us that his election was not free and fair. He made that confession. Democracy is government of the people by the people for the people. It is not just a cliché! It is true. All the indices since 1999: low standard of education, low standard of infrastructure, low standard of health care, all go to show that Nigerian lifestyle has been falling, which means that we haven’t had democracy for the people. And on the contrary, there has been governance against the people. So, June 12, to me, is till work in progress in these other areas I have mentioned.

 Can we say that June 12 is still relevant?

June 12 was an actualisation of a united nation or a united country. I would not want to get into an argument of whether we are a nation or a country. Of course I am a professor of Political Science;  so I know what those words mean. But that day, June 12, we crossed all the divides. The religious divide and the social divide, in the sense that, both the rich and the poor took part in an election that had the two candidates being multi-millionaires and Nigerians voted for the richest of them. So, it was not about the rich versus the poor. So, we overcame that social divide; we overcame appointments in that new government was because it was too soon and we saw that it would have amounted to a betrayal of MKO Abiola.

With all that you have said, will President Muhammadu Buhari trying to right the wrongs against June 12 bring the country together?

At the time President Buhari did it last year, I congratulated him. I still do because it was a good move on his part. It was needed. The country needed it. He read the mood of the country rightly. Some people have said that he was playing politics and my reply is, ‘So what?’ If a man decides  build an airport in my village and I say it is politics, will I reject it? No!  Politicians play politics all the time. I don’t think there is any politician that does anything without thinking about how it would benefit him as a public figure. He could have refused to do it. After all, he was not and is still not the only post-June 12 President. Others had their reasons why they didn’t do it. But he did it.

But has that united us?

Has the country gained the maximum values that we could have gained out of it? The answer is no! The cleavages in the country are not only still there, they are wider as we talk now. June 12 was the emergence of a new Nigeria. But now, the drums of war are beating; the drums of secession are beating and they are not localised. June 12 marked the embodiment of farewell to poverty. Are we richer now than we were in 1993? No, we are not. So, this is a second term for the President. And if you ask me for an agenda for him, I think he just has to tackle the issues that divide us. All what makes June 12 relevant, are the things that we should do or else … People have warned, people whose voices can be heard in international community louder than mine have warned, that the rain which has started falling on our heads has now become a hurricane that is tearing us apart. That must be addressed. The issues of health, education, unemployment, infrastructure and others. John F. Kennedy once said, ‘If the poor cannot sleep because they are hungry, the rich cannot sleep because they are afraid of the poor who are awake!’ Or as our fathers would say in this part of the world, ‘The cock has alighted on the wire, both the wire and the cock will not be in peace.’ Ediye ba lokun; ara o ro okun ara  o ro adiye.

Do you miss academic life? Or are you still teaching?

I am retired for reasons of age and also we have a bad system in this country. There was a time when one of the vice-chancellors approached me if I would like to come back and teach a course or two. I agreed and even offered to teach free of charge. Of course, you can’t employ someone in the university without taking the issue through the department, faculty and then the senate. Surprisingly, it was my former colleagues in my former department in the university who vetoed it and said, ‘No, we don’t need him.’ But this shortsightedness is not directed to me personally. In 1975, I took a concept to General Murtala Mohammed who was head of state at that time. I said to him, ‘You are retiring these people, can we copy the American module whereby some of these permanent secretaries who have had 15, or 20 or more years of experience, preparing budgets, implementation of budgets and things like that or persons who have been handling policies in the ministries or in a ministry like foreign affairs and know about conflict resolution could return to the universities and get funded, it may not be part of the university budgets, but an extra budgetary allocation for them and even build a place for them in the universities so that their experience can then be used. If somebody is a permanent secretary at the ministry of finance for over 10 years, he does not need a textbook to teach a student how to prepare a budget or teach the students about the constraints in implementing a budget or what often leads to supplementary budgets. Murtala jumped at the idea. He thought it was brilliant because at that time, the people that were being retired were in their 40s and a few in their 50s. It was the universities that told us to get lost with the idea! They said, ‘No, we decided to be scholars, while they decided to be public servants! Therefore, the two will never meet.’ Whereas in the United States, when one administration leaves the office, the assistant secretary of state ends up in the university to teach there. When the party comes back to power, the incoming president knows where to turn to because they are already there. Not that they will leave one administration to go home and vegetate. So, this shortsightedness on the part of the university community is still there. But you know the interesting thing? The private universities are now benefiting from it, using professors who have retired from federal and state universities to their favour.

When we were coming in, we saw the building closest to the gate, what is it?

Oh, that is my library, the seal I put there was the seal of the National Conference that I took part in, in 2014. My intention was to open the library to scholars in International Relations who could be looking for materials for their Masters or Ph.D degree, but it is not fully operational yet.

What do you do in your spare time these days?

I often get invitations to lecture abroad. And I do that but not on a permanent basis.

We were here in the past, and saw different animals that you keep. Are you still breeding those animals?

My animals are still there. They are a permanent feature of the Peacock Place. There are peacocks, antelopes, deer, geese, turkey and the others.

How about socials, do you still have time for them?

I get invitations; there are some that I can accept, there are organisations and societies that confer honours on me and I accept some of those and attend some of them. There are also some who invite me to chair their activities. If it is convenient, I accept and attend.

Do students still disturb you?

(He laughs) Oh, I don’t see it as disturbance. Yes, students still approach me to interview me for their projects. I welcome that because basically, I am a teacher at heart. I welcome the opportunity to interact with students, the young, to pass on the knowledge that was passed on to me when I was a student.

Over the years, you have kept this gentleman’s style of appearance. Always corporate, some people would think that as you advance in age, you will perhaps dress down a little. Are you going to change some time soon?

Why should I change? It is part of me. It is part of my branding. I find it convenient; I am at ease with this style. But then, one doesn’t know tomorrow, but I am at ease with it right now.

What’s the secret of your longevity?

(Laughs) What do you mean by longevity? I open newspapers and still see people in their 80s and 90s! I am not 80 yet; I’m moving towards it. Though it is a serious issue that you have raised. Why should we in Nigeria of 2019 regard 77 as longevity? Yes, it is above median lifespan in Nigeria and Africa. But in Europe, it is not so. If one does not overstress himself, one can live longer. Though, there are several ways whereby we overstress ourselves in this country, which can be avoided.