Category: Saturday Interview

Dr. Abubakar Jimoh, who has been the image maker of the National Agency for Food and Drugs Administration and Control (NAFDAC) since inception, is currently the Director of Special Duties of the agency. In this encounter with SANNI ONOGU, he gave an insight into the inner workings of the agency from inception and his life lessons as he clocks 50 today. Excerpts:

THE core mandate of NAFDAC is to control and regulate drugs and food products, what are the implications of not keeping to set standards, especially in the manufacture and consumption of consumer goods like food and fake drugs? Obviously what you are asking me is what are the health consequences of poor quality products, counterfeit drugs, unwholesome processed food, corrosive cosmetics, poor quality packaged water and substandard medical devices? The effects are so obvious as it relates to the regulatory activities of NAFDAC and NAFDAC regulated products. The damage to vital organs of the body of all these regulated products because it impacts directly on the health of the individual as opposed to other products being regulated by the Standards Organisation of Nigeria some of which are not edible. But NAFDAC’s regulated products are products that you consume, you take and that you apply to your body. It is related to human beings and even animals. So to that extent, it has direct effect on the body. So if it is not qualitative or up to standard like you pointed out, obviously the consequences are so glaring and grave, especially in terms of the devastating health consequences. So, if you are talking of counterfeit drugs, they can lead to damage of vital organs of the body like liver cirrhosis. They can lead to the damage to kidneys and other vital human organs in the body. It can lead to the impairment of vital organs of the body. Once those organs, which are the engine of the human being, are affected, if it is not effectively managed, it can lead to death. But even at times when you use counterfeit eye drops, it can lead to blindness. So many parts of the body are very sensitive and once a drug is counterfeit it portents grave health implications. Also, it tries to erode the confidence that you have in the therapeutic efficiency of the clinicians – either medical doctors, nurses and other healthcare providers who administer these drugs. They begin to wonder what is happening when a counterfeit drug is administered. Patient A takes in efficacious drugs and gets well instantly and the drug does what it is meant to do. Then, patient B takes a counterfeit drug. The consequences are quite obvious because it is the opposite of it. To that extent, the person may even be sent to instant death depending on the gravity of the counterfeited drug, especially if its is outright poison. If it is an intravenous injection, the person can even die immediately because it goes straight into the blood. We don’t joke with the issue of counterfeit drugs and that is why the DG NAFDAC, Dr. Paul Orhii, believes that a drug counterfeiter is worse than an armed robber. An armed robber points a gun at you at one goal and if you are lucky and you are able to surrender what you have, he or she may be merciful and leave you to go scud free, although he has collected what he wants to dispossess you of. But a counterfeiter does not give you that option, according to Dr. Paul Orhii. When you have a relation that is hospitalised, you will even go and borrow the money you don’t have to buy these counterfeit drugs and come and administer. So, it is grievous and it can kill enmasse. An armed robber is one at a goal or maybe he enters a household and there are three people there and the three people may become victims. But counterfeit drugs that you supplied in stock to a community, it can wipe out a community through gradual death without people knowing what is responsible for the death of these people. To that extent, we see the phenomenon of counterfeiting as genocidal because it kills quietly without anybody tracing it to the counterfeit drug. Also, it reduces the productive segment of the population. By killing people it is a minus and not a plus for the economy. It also has effect on our economy when counterfeit drugs are imported because you use our foreign exchange to import some of these drugs that come from some particular Asian countries. So these are some of the consequences of counterfeit drugs. The same thing can be extrapolated for unwholesome processed food and corrosive cosmetics that contain some banned chemicals. They also lead to the damage of vital organs of the body which results in bleaching. That is why we call them regulated products. It is different from when you want to buy ‘okrika’ whose effect is not as grievous as when you have NAFDAC regulated products because it goes straight into the body. Apart from the concerted efforts made by the different heads of NAFDAC up till Dr. Paul Orhii – from the first DG to Akunyili and now Dr. Orhii, people are quick to credit your office with the robust media visibility of NAFDAC especially starting from the time of Akunyili up till now. How did you achieve the feet? Thank you very much. With a great sense of modesty and humility, I would say that any achievement I was able to record as the head of public relations unit right from inception, I will attribute it to the entire NAFDAC staff because as a media man – I started as a journalist before veering off into public relations practice – I do know that if you don’t have a story, if there is no activity there is no news. NAFDAC under the distinguished leadership of these three people, from Osuide, Akunyili and Dr. Paul Orhii have been marvelous. The staff have been efficient, world class and a shining model for other agencies. As a matter of fact, people tend to call NAFDAC Plc – Plc in the sense that we work like a private enterprise. I told you our job is 24/7, so no resting on our oars because we believe that the sacred duty, the trust that has been vested in us is the life of over 170 million Nigerians. We don’t joke with it. God forbid, once there is a calamity and the death of one single person, NAFDAC will not be able to sleep. We know the enormity and the challenges we have and we rose up to it. So, I will credit or attribute the successes we have recorded in terms of the visibility and the robust public awareness campaign overall to the contribution of all NAFDAC’s regulatory officers. I am speaking in terms of seizures, in terms of arrests and breaking the news for us to report. If there is no activity then a public relations officer, no matter how efficient, there is nothing you can do. Also, we are very conscious of our image as a transparent and honest agency because corruption is a direct antithesis of effective regulation. So to that extent, our leaders have had zero tolerance to corruption right from Osuide to Prof. Dora Akunyili and now Dr. Paul Orhii. The cliche is zero tolerance for corruption because you cannot marry the two and that has been our own strength. I am not saying there is no one or two bad eggs that have been shown the way out of the system, so to that extent these have coalesced into the efficiency that we have in NAFDAC. Without being immodest, I would also want to say that the approach we have used in NAFDAC is highly unconventional. They are approaches you cannot read in public relation books based on our ingenious ability to create and recreate new strategies in staying ahead of the game but we will not let our secret out of the bag (Laughs). Today, you will be celebrating your 50th birthday. How was it like growing up? Were you born with a silver spoon in your mouth? Well, growing up was quite interesting for me. I come from a rural background in Okene. I was born and bred in Okene town, Okene Local Government Area of Kogi State. My upbringing was quite interesting as a child. I grew up from what you may call a middle class background. I can’t say my parents were rich but we are not poor. It was like a middle class. I also grew up from a parentage that I would say were halfway literate because my father finished what we call the Standard 7 of those days and he had to develop himself educationally, then later he veered off into produce buying like cocoa which took him to the Western Region as it were in those days and my mother also followed closely – obviously where your husband is going, you go. My mother was a produce trader buying in wholesale like beans, garri and also distributing to other retailers. This was the type of background I grew up in and that was why I said it is a middle class background because for a wholesale buyer, you need capital to be able to work. Again, that also translated into making my educational background to be seamless. I didn’t lack in terms of school fees and other necessary needs but I didn’t have enough because I also had my other siblings who were also being trained and all of us were competing for attention for the same scarce resources. To that extent, my growing up was very fantastic for me. I grew up as a village boy from my local government area primary school to a community school called the Lennon Memorial College – it used to be an Anglican College in those days in Okene. From Lennon Memorial College, I went to Kwara State College of Technology which is now called Kwara Poly to do my basic studies. There I wrote my A’level GCE and JAMB. So it has been a fantastic experience. From there I went to the University of Ibadan to read Political Science at the university in 1984 – 1987 and I graduated as the best student in the Department of Political Science and also the entire Faculty of the Social Sciences, which comprised about five departments. That was in 1987 and I won the two prizes for the best student in the department of Political Science and also the entire Faculty of the Social Sciences in 1987. That was a record so to say, even though I was just a little points away from making a First Class, but that record was like breaking the jinx in the Political Science Department because after 10 years, the person who made that first overall in the Faculty which is one of the current Vice Chancellors of the University of Ibadan, Prof. Agbaje, and I broke the jinx 10 years after and became the overall in the faculty. As it were, it used to be rotated between the Department of Psychology and Economics because they were always making their First Class but I came and broke that jinx. God was faithful, I didn’t set out to be the best just like in my secondary school also, I didn’t set out to be the best. But due to dint of hard work, I was always competing against myself because I didn’t know what the other classmates were doing. I would set a target for myself in a particular course and say this is what I want to score and if I score it I keep on moving. So it was shocking to me that they started looking for me at the end of the year at the University of Ibadan. ‘Who is Abu Jimoh? Who is Abu Jimoh?’ I was quiet in class. I was unknown so to say. I was not the noise making type and it came as a surprise me and I started wondering whether I had committed any offence for them to be looking for me, and they told me that I was the best student in the entire faculty not even in the department but the entire Faculty of the Social Sciences. God was faithful and God was merciful to me so I give glory to God for those yeoman achievements. After I finished my university, my first major luck was to be retained as one of the best in the university but it was shocking to me and highly disappointing when they rejected me. I went to the Head of the Department of Political Science, Dr. Adebisi as it were, he later became a Professor and the Secretary to the Oyo State Government. He was the Head of Department. As a young man of 22 and half years, I was very young, so I went to him as the tradition holds whether I could be retained because I had the love and the flair for academia so I could become a lecturer because my dream was to become a Professor of Political Science, stay quietly in the university community and do research that would be helpful to humanity. Shockingly, I was told to go to my state, that was when we were in Kwara State, to the University of Ilorin. As a young man, I said ‘the University of Ilorin didn’t produce me, the University of Ibadan should celebrate me,’ but I didn’t know what was wrong, I was not celebrated and that was the very shock of my life which I got as a young man. I was disappointed. So I was turned down and I had to go out there in the cold, went for my Youth Service Corps, came back and I started looking for job. So luckily, I was looking up to some other guys who had graduated from the University of Ibadan like Dr. Ojo Onukaba, and as it were, he also left Lennon Memorial College as I was entering, then as I was going to the University of Ibadan he was also leaving again. So, to me he was a role model. So when I heard he was practising in Guardian Newspaper and was making great successes I also wanted to be like him. So I left as a young boy for Lagos and went to Guardian Newspaper. As a matter of fact, I met him as a young boy, although he would not recall now and I said I wanted to start reporting for The Guardian. I didn’t know anything about journalism because I didn’t read Mass Communication but I saw him as a role model because I was enamoured by his performance in Lennon Memorial College also down to the University of Ibadan. So I wanted to be like him. But he told me that I had to freelance for sometime and I said ‘no.’ Inside me, I thought that was not what I was cut out for – freelancing with no salary when I felt that I should come and play the role of a good boy and contribute something meaningfully to the upbringing and educational development of my siblings. So I was anxious and said this is not for me and l left for Kano where I was lucky. My auntie who was based in Kano, through her connection, I was able to get to the Triumph Publishing Company – The Kano State Government-owned Triumph Newspaper – shortly after I finished my NYSC. So in October 1998 without even suffering I got a job because while I was scouting for job I didn’t know what to do – I was confused. But as luck would would have it, the former Managing Director – he is late now, Dr. Madaki – he was a friend to my auntie’s family. He came visiting and they gave him my Curriculum Vitae and he was so happy and he asked ‘who made this result?’ They quickly called me and when he saw me, he said ‘you have this result, the best student in the Department of Political Science and Faculty of Social Science, this is marvelous and amazing’ and that this is the type of talent they want to showcase in Triumph Publishing Company. He told me that I should go straightaway on the following Monday and meet one young man, as it were, Alhaji Garba Shehu, who was the Editor and he later became the President of the Nigeria Guild of Editors. Garba Shehu is still the media adviser to the former Vice President Atiku Abubakar, as we speak. So he interviewed me and there and then I started work as a journalist without even any tutorials. So I had to be attached to some other colleagues who had been on the job to understudy them. Then within two months I started reporting by myself and thereafter I was employed specifically, even though I had not practised journalism, to go and be the State Editor of Kwara State for the Triumph Newspapers because as it were the officer who was there left, the place was shut down and I was employed specifically with the intention of going to reopen that place. After working for about three months understudying them, they now left me alone to be practising and going to report and they studied me and discovered that this is marvelous and I have been performing well even though I had not gone to the school of journalism. From there, I was posted and I had to go and look for an office in Kwara State, then got an office. They set it up and I became the State Editor of Triumph Newspaper. I was just barely there in 1990 when I was transferred to go to Lagos to go and reposition the aviation industry and the crime beat. So I was transferred to Lagos as the Southern Correspondent of Triumph Newspaper and that was where I was and reporting the aviation industry, crime and other general beats. I had to use the great opportunity to quickly put in for my Master’s Degree at the University of Lagos and that was where I had my Master’s just as I was working sidelines. So after five and half years, I felt that I had paid my dues and I had to move on. I got into the Federal Ministry of Health just barely for about one year as a Protocol Officer and I was not getting the fulfillment I wanted because I was used to the very dynamic and active journalism that I had practised; so coming to sit down on a desk and idling away was alien to me and I did not understand it. Just as I was doing that, NAFDAC was being carved out of the Federal Ministry of Health as a regulatory agency and I took specific advantage of that and the pioneer Director General, Dr. Gabriel Osuide, took me on board. But somebody had to introduce me because when I was practising journalism I forged a friendship with the interim or somebody we can call the Minister of State as it were at that time, she is late now, Hajia Laraba Daggash – the mother of Senator Daggash. She took likeness in me as a son and was like my guardian. She just took personal interest in what I was doing as a journalist and he encouraged me. I told her I wanted to join the Federal Ministry of Health and she used her position to get me into the Federal Ministry of Health. As I was certain that I was not getting the fulfillment, I told her I wanted NAFDAC – the newly created regulatory agency in 1993. She said okay, no problem and she introduced me to Prof. Gabriel Osuide. I would say luck played a very fast one on me because after I was introduced to Prof. Osuide, he told me to go and wait, that nothing was happening. He was trying to put up the structure and each time I wanted to make effort the secretary would prevent me from seeing them because as it were they already had their own candidate for the post of public relations officer. So, we had the journalist from the defunct Daily Times – a Yoruba guy – and the Secretary was Yoruba and the Personal Assistant was Yoruba. So they had already forged an alliance on how to position the young man there. As a matter of fact, the guy had already started doing the PR job – doing newspaper cuttings, organising press conferences, gathering journalists and all those things – doing the work quietly. But I think luck, providence, and divine intervention was on my side and Prof. Osuide had to ask the PA to go and look for that young man called Abubakar Jimoh and when they looked out for me by then I was already in the Federal Ministry of Health as a Protocol Officer just about four offices away from Prof. Osuide’s. As a matter of fact, when Prof. Osuide was going into his office early in the morning I would greet him because I had given up that they had prevented me from entering NAFDAC. So they dropped a letter – because they didn’t know my address again because I was not following up again – I had given up – in my Triumph Publishing Company office, the address I used in the past and the driver there graciously brought it for me because I was good to him and that is why I will advise that people should be good to people. He would have thrown that letter away and that would have been the end of me. He brought that letter and said ‘there was a precious letter brought to you and I had to bring it to you.’ By then I had left Triumph Newspaper, so he brought it to me and I opened it – ‘DG NAFDAC wants you urgently’ – so I had to resume. And the DG said ‘young man where have you been?’ And I said ‘sir I greet you every day when you are passing by. This is my office, I am a Protocol Officer here.’ He said ‘what do you mean?’ Literally, he said ‘what do you want now? Do you you still want to work with me?’ I said ‘of course sir, I want to work with you.’ He said ‘work starts n-o-w!’ That is how I became the pioneer head of public relations unit of the National Agency for Food and Drugs Administration and Control in December that year. They told me that I should start and I can operate from my small office since it is still the same Ministry of Health and NAFDAC had not been given an office – we were just trying to do some structures in the Federal Secretariat, Obalende, where small offices were being carved out. So I was operating from my desk as a Protocol Officer then still doing my public relations job. As a matter of fact, it is still the same ministry, I was under the Personnel Department, Prof. Osuide took me to the late Dr. Saidu Mohammed who was the Director of Personnel in the Federal Ministry of Health. And he said ‘Prof, what do you want?’ And he said ‘do you know this young man?’ Dr. Saidu was laughing he said ‘he is my staff in the personnel department.’ ‘What do you want Prof?’ He said ‘I want this young man. Can we convert him?’ Because it is still within the same ministry.

Olanrewaju Adesola Onadeko, a former Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) of the Republic of Gambia, was Secretary, Council of Legal Education and later, Deputy Director-General of the Nigerian Law School (NLS), Lagos campus. He later rose to the office of the Director General of the NLS on December 11, 2013. In this interview with TONY AKOWE and ERIC IKHILAE, Onadeko spokes on sundry issues, including the progress made so far by the institution and efforts being made to sustain the required standard in the teaching of law in the country. Excerpts:

THE Nigeria Law School was established to provide legal and practical training for both foreign and Nigeriantrained law graduates; 51 years down the line, will you say that the school has effectively achieved that purpose? I will say yes, and for good reasons too. From the modest beginning in January 1963, when the first set of eight students commenced training; if you do a little bit of arithmetic, you will realise that if those men were in their 20s, they will be approaching 80 years now. Some of them are still alive. One of them, Justice Ajuyah, was the President of the Customary Court of the defunct Bendel State. His son is the present Commissioner for Justice and Attorney-General of Delta State. Others include Senator Oyiabo Obi and Justice Shonaike, who was Chief Judge of Ogun State. These are three members of that first set of the Law School that I know and with whom we are still in contact. When talking about the Law School fulfilling its mandate or fulfilling the dreams of its founding fathers, I will say that the school has produced personnel for an entire arm of government. Since judges have to be lawyers, it goes to say that it is the products of the Nigeria Law School that are manning the Judiciary arm of government. I am proud to say that today, our Judiciary is one that is essentially home-bred. From the Chief Justice of Nigeria, who is the product of the Nigeria Law School, to all the Justices of the Supreme Court, the President of the Court of Appeal, all the judges of the Court of Appeal, the Chief Judges of the 36 states high courts and all the personnel of Nigerian courts are all products of the Nigeria Law School. What more can we say? If you go to the executive arm of government, the Attorney General of the Federation, who is the official leader of the Bar is a product of the Nigeria Law School, as well as all the attorneys generals of the 36 states, among other individuals too numerous to mention.

If the Law School is traceable to all these functionaries some 51 years on, and the school is still growing strong, keeping pace with the rest of the world in our curriculum and in the subject that we expose our students to, then we must be doing well. We are mindful that we are training lawyers for the 21st century and things have changed since 1963. So, we are keeping pace with that. That is why our lawyers can go abroad and take the examination of the Bars of those countries and be enrolled to practise there. So, I am proud to say that we have come of age and needless to say that the dream of the forefathers and their vision has been fulfilled by this institution.

You became the Director-General of this institution in December 2013. What has been the experience so far? It has been an eventful experience. Apart from the headquarters of the school in Abuja, there are five campuses across the country. Coordinating what goes on in those campuses has been a very interesting experience, not only in terms of what they do daily, but also in the areas of admission of students and their deployment to campuses, preparation of these students for internship programme, law office and law courts attachment, debriefing them by way of portfolio assessment and the Bar final examination, which we concluded last month. For the first time in the history of the school, we conducted the final Bar examination by deploying ICT to the fullest. Questions were not taken by hand to any campus. We used ICT to transmit those questions and there was adequate security without incidents.

That was quite a rewarding experience for us. It makes the job easier and it involved the campuses more because the questions were printed there. We intend to improve on that in subsequent years. Administratively, there are lots to do. But don’t forget that I have been in the system for a number of years. Without being immodest, I would say that I will be the last academic to hold all the positions and also the highest administrative position in the Law School. Along the line, I was Director of Administration and Secretary to the Council, which is now purely an administrative position. No academic will ever hold that position again.

What have been the major challenges? There are challenges that we face on a daily basis. We only strive to overcome them by relying on the cooperation of our staff. If you start from admission, we were compelled to run two sessions- in-one this year. That was shortly after I came into office. The ASUU strike of last year, which lasted for several months, created a backlog for us and we had to bear in mind the interest of the students. So, we quickly put together a structure for that purpose. And in April this year, we admitted another set of students and those students are now on internship programme. That was a big challenge, because it is more work on the staff who would miss their vacation. I don’t think there is any staff who can take a full leave until August 2016.

You talked about the deployment of ICT in transmitting exam questions. Was that because of incidents of examination leakages that we have heard of in recent times? No, not exactly. Before the last final Bar examination, our questions used to be printed at the headquarters and air freighted and road freighted to the campuses the same day to the campuses for the exam to commence at 3.00pm. That in itself had its own advantages and disadvantages. First, it was very cumbersome and it involved carrying the questions physically. We never had any incident of attack on them; but it was a lot of responsibility on the people who were saddled with that job. This year, because we realised that we needed to move forward and because it was increasingly becoming difficult to access our campuses daily, we have to resort to the use of ICT. So, the questions were transmitted in that mode. There was no printing of questions here go be carried to the campuses. That was done without any problem.

What we are doing now will further guard against the likelihood of examination malpractice. At the Law School, we don’t preset questions and if questions have not been set, it cannot leak. We jokingly tell our students that if you see any questions around, you better don’t listen to those spreading them. The DG is the Chief Examiner and questions are determined on the day of an examination. So, you can see that it is almost impossible to say that questions that are not yet determined could leak, and that is why I say that it is one of our strength here. I know that a number of institutions are copying that now. Once you predetermine questions, you cannot be 100 percent sure that the sanctity of those questions will not be compromised.

Going through your website, it was discovered that out of the about 47 universities listed as having a law faculty, only the University of Lagos has a full accreditation, while others have either provisional or other forms of accreditation. Why is this so? We don’t live in isolation. So, whatever we do in Nigeria has to be weighed or accessed, bearing in mind the international best practices. When we go on accreditation, we review our law faculties with indices that put them at par with universities anywhere in the world. That is how we came about the status of the University of Lagos. Many reasons, including its location in the commercial heartland of Nigeria give the University of Lagos the added advantage of having access to materials among others. Don’t forget that a teacher of law in the University of Lagos has access to far more things to engage in and to develop him than his counterpart in a more rural setting. That is one of the things that draw academics to the University of Lagos. In terms of staff, they have the best. In terms of number and spread, they have the best. They have the highest number of professors and other teaching staff, as well as the number. If you look at the facilities too, they rank best in that area. I did not attend the University of Lagos, and so, don’t think that I am praising them. But one has to say it the way it is.

Be that as it may, we don’t want to rank our law faculties only to find out that they are not up to standard when viewed side by side with law faculties elsewhere. That is why the University of Olanrewaju Adesola Onadeko, a former Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) of the Republic of Gambia, was Secretary, Council of Legal Education and later, Deputy Director-General of the Nigerian Law School (NLS), Lagos campus. He later rose to the office of the Director General of the NLS on December 11, 2013. In this interview with TONY AKOWE and ERIC IKHILAE, Onadeko spokes on sundry issues, including the progress made so far by the institution and efforts being made to sustain the required standard in the teaching of law in the country. Excerpts: After a general review of the legal education terrain, it was decided that it was not in the interest of the profession to have law studied part time or by correspondence, because the study of law transcends the classroom and library somewhere. It is a total package… There is a lot to the training of a lawyer in using communication skills. They were found to be deficient in those who studied law by correspondence and other distant learning modules… ‘ ‘ Why Open University students can’t be lawyers — Law School D-G Adesola Onadeko INTERVIEW • Olanrewaju Onadeko Lagos is the only one that has really met that standard. The others that are not on the same level with UNILAG are not necessarily bad or not good enough. We are looking at the totality in terms of staffing and facilities, among others. Like you rightly observed, others have one form of ranking or the other. This is supposed to spur them, because there are things that we indicate in our accreditation reports sent back to the Vice-Chancellors and the Deans after its approval by our own council. Another thing that may rear its head later is the way that faculties of law are being established. It is way above the way we are training academics to man these faculties. By your own account, there are 47 faculties, I can tell you the number we have accredited, but I know that there are others that the council has not given any form of accreditation because they are new. When I was a student, there were only four law faculties in Nigeria. But you have counted 47, needless to say that we have not kept with pace in terms of staff development and training of staff to man these faculties. So, what we have is that once a faculty is established, it poaches from existing faculties, which themselves are yet to fully mature. And that is what has made it difficult for many of these faculties to attain the ranking of full accreditation which the University of Lagos has. We hope that things will continue to improve.

I also observed that accreditation into law faculties in some universities, like the Madonna and University of Abuja, has been suspended. The implication is that they may not be allowed to admit students. Are you working in collaboration with JAMB to ensure that entrance examination is not conducted into the law programme of those schools? It is not only JAMB, because we are also in a good working relationship with the NUC. And if you look at the laws setting up these agencies, even though it is not stated there explicitly, the status envisages that they work in conjunction with institutions and agencies aligned with their main functions. That is what we are doing now and it is yielding some dividends. In fact, the NUC has informed the Registrar of JAMB and listed accredited law faculties in Nigeria, indicating the number of students they are expected to admit. This is the first time that is being done. Now, at the point of entry, there is control because JAMB has that and it will not grant you in excess of what the NUC has approved and the number indicated by the NUC is the number approved by the Council of Legal Education. You can see that for the first time, we are having the control, right from the entry point, a thing that was not there before. The case of Madonna you mentioned was so bad. Their quota is about 40 or 50 and they were admitting in excess of 700 and that is almost the carrying capacity of one campus of the Nigeria Law School. Even the University of Lagos that has full accreditation has a quota of 280. With all the resources in Lagos, they admit 280. How can Madonna admit 700? So, they precipitated the crisis for themselves and I know that the council and the NUC have brought in sanctions.

The implication is that those students who are already in at the time of the sanction will be cleared out, but no further admission will be entertained for the period of that sanction. That is the way it has to be. You see, regulatory bodies must do their work and must do it properly, because not even the top-most universities in the world admit 700 students into a class. We should not water down the quality that the regulators of the institutions have built over the years.

Graduates of the National Open University are not being admitted into the Law School. Why is this so? The issue is about rules and regulations. The Council for Legal Education is the regulatory body for legal education in Nigeria, and it is established by a statute, the Legal Education Act of 1962, as amended, and now the Legal Education Act of 2004 Laws of the Federation. The Open University and other institutions offering distance learning and correspondence programmes were specifically precluded by the Council of Legal Education and the Board of Benchers. The Body of Benchers is the body set up by law under the Legal Practitioners Act for the main purpose of admitting new lawyers to the Bar. They are the only body empowered by law to call lawyers to the Bar, while we are supposed to train them, conduct qualifying examination and issue them with qualifying certificates.

The Body of Benchers will then consider them, based on their character, among other things, and if they are found worthy, then they will be called to the Bar. After a general review of the legal education terrain, it was decided that it was not in the interest of the profession to have law studied part time or by correspondence, because the study of law transcends the classroom and library somewhere. It is a total package. You must have heard about the law dinner at the Law School. These are part of the component parts of ethics and the general molding of a total lawyer that is beyond the classroom. There is a lot to the training of a lawyer in using communication skills. They were found to be deficient in those who studied law by correspondence and other distant learning modules. That was why these two bodies decided that if you want to study law, go into a properly-accredited law faculty and study law. You don’t study medicine by correspondence or in the Open University. It is the same with engineering and pharmacy, among others.

Every profession has its own criteria of admitting those aspiring to enter the profession and that is what these two bodies empowered to regulate the profession have done. This has been communicated to the general public over and over again. There are advertorials on it and it is on our website and everybody is aware of this. If any institution decides on its own volition to proceed to run a course at variance with what the bodies set up by law to regulate the profession have stipulated, so be it. So, the issue does not even arise. You mentioned 47 law faculties, and in addition to that, we have students who studied abroad who come to the Law School.

Nigerians now know that those coming in studied law fulltime abroad and we know the difference. The point is that everybody is aware that, just as you cannot say you are studying medicine by correspondence or distant learning, the Body of Benchers and the Council of Legal Education have determined that the study of law should be on full-time basis in institutions approved for such. So, I think that anyone who wants to study law should listen to these two bodies who have the power to determine those who enter the profession.

There was a time when the idea of having a first degree in another discipline before going to study law was toyed with by the Council. Has that been suspended or is it still being considered? That is correct. I know of about two universities that started their law faculties by admitting graduates from other disciplines. If you look at what obtains elsewhere in the world, especially in England and Wales, there are other ways to get to study law. Those who have degrees in other areas are given faster route of achieving their aim of becoming lawyers. But don’t forget that every region has its own way of doing things. I know some universities toyed with the idea, but they found the idea difficult to sustain. People have asked me whether I will support law being made a graduate programme as it is in the USA, Australia and a few other places, and my answer is no. I did not study law as a graduate student. I studied law after my HSC and I don’t think that I have any deficiency before going abroad for my graduate studies.

What I am trying to say is that I don’t think that we have gotten to that stage where we can afford to put that step between the study of law and those who want to study law. Students spend five years in law faculties to study law now. I don’t imagine that I want to see a student spending four years, then go for youth service and then come back to do another five years to study law and later go to the Law School. If you put that together, you will be getting about 11 years of study. That cannot be justified in our own situation for now. Don’t forget that things evolve. In the future, when we get there and the need arises for law to be made a graduate programme, I do think that those who are there will consider that. The Council of Legal Education has set up a committee to review the law curriculum as a result of concerns raised about the quality of our law graduates. What is the outcome of that exercise? The issue of the falling standard of our law graduates has been a source of concern to stakeholders in the profession. When you have a large number, with so many faculties of law, you find that when numbers are on the rise, standard will invariably be compromised in some cases. I think it is just the consequence of large numbers. The only ray of hope there is that in the midst of all this, we still produce top graduates in Nigeria who have continued to prove their worth anywhere in the world. When you look at our assessment of these students after completing their programme at the Law School, some of them come out tops and they continue in that fashion even after leaving us. I am about to do a reference for our last year’s best graduate to Harvard and Oxford and I have no doubt that she will be granted admission. Up there, we have them, but down below, one cannot deny the fact that there is cause for concern. But we are determined at the Nigeria Law School to ensure that we continue to enhance the standard. We are thinking of infusing communication skills into the training module at the Law School. One of the problems we know that we have is the use of English by Nigerian graduates, and English is our official language. It is not the fault of the Nigeria Law School and I will not totally put it at the door step of the universities. It has to do with the foundation. Don’t forget that if the foundation is weak, whatever you put on it is going to be affected. So, from next session, we are going to introduce the use of English via communication skills, so that we can brush up those who need to be brushed up and bring them up to the level necessary for entry into the profession. It is usual for Nigerians to want the government to do everything. In developed countries, Alumni play very important roles in the development of education. What has been the contribution of the Alumni to the development of this institution? At the celebration of our 50th anniversary last year, we engaged the Alumni of the Nigeria Law School and they responded very well. Don’t forget that there are very few lawyers in Nigeria today who are not products of the Nigeria Law School. What that means is that any lawyer you see anywhere in Nigeria would have attended this institution.

In view of that, we have a hostel project going on right now in the institution, courtesy of the Katsina State government, and the governor is a lawyer. He certainly has come to the aid of the Nigeria Law School in our time of need and that hostel is going to give us an additional 250 bed spaces. We have similar projects coming up in other campuses. The 1986 and 1988 sets have done something for the school too. Other sets are doing one thing or the other. At the moment, we have about five or six governors and they have always contributed to our staff development. In the structured sense, the Alumni office is now established and even at the lowest end, there were services we were providing for our students. They are now required to make a modest contribution to the Alumni purse at the Law School. Any service you require thereafter will be offered. We hope that those funds, when deployed to facilities will be named after the Alumni. The Danjuma Foundation made a pledge during the 50th anniversary to renovate the Sir Ademola Adetokumbo Hall in Lagos and that is going on right now; the Kano State government in the Kano campus; the Adamawa State government in the Yola campus; the Bayelsa State government in Yenagoa, while the Enugu State government is doing something in the Enugu campus. The Law School is endowed to produce students who are going to be well-placed in the future and we will continue to develop them. Like you said, elsewhere in the world, Alumni are doing a lot in funding education and I think we are getting there. Won’t that affect the school fees? What will affect the school fees is when government divests totally. For example, the hostel being built, we don’t need to put pressure on government again to come and replicate the same thing. Whatever the Alumni group of the Nigeria Law School is giving, we don’t need to ask the government to replicate it. The actual fees paid here are just a fraction. But there are other services to be rendered. For example, every student must get two copies of Law and Practice journal before leaving here and that has to be paid for by the students. We have the law dinner and before any student leaves the school, he must have at least three law dinners, which have to be paid for. You can see what is happening nationwide now; even state governments have realised the need to look into what students pay and are bringing in some increases that you see students reacting. Are we likely to see an increase in fees soon? No. But don’t forget that we are frugally expected to expend that money. And when students pay for the journals, we don’t have to go out and produce at a rate that would make it difficult for them to subscribe to. The law dinners are training sessions for the lawyers. You have two campuses in the northern states exposed to insecurity. What security measures have you put in place in those campuses and are you considering a temporary shut down until the situation improves? Security has become a very important issue in our national life in Nigeria. The things we use to take for granted are no longer taken for granted. It is true that our campuses in Yola and Kano are situated in places that are most affected by insecurity and the activities of the insurgents. But don’t forget that life in some cities is still normal. If one bears in mind that there are insurgents and their activities are on, we still must note that there are Nigerians living peacefully and carrying out their endeavours in these cities. That is why we have done everything we can and within our powers to ensure that we fortify our security. We have contacted the Inspector General of Police and the Chief of Defence Staff and they have responded positively. We have been reaping the result of their intervention. We are almost through with the fencing of these two institutions. The Kano campus had no fence whatever because we inherited the Bagauda Lake Hotel premises for use. At a great cost to us, we have almost completed the fencing. The same thing applies to Yola. These two projects are priority projects to us and we are almost through with the fencing. Another important thing is the awareness of the staff and students. No matter how much technology you have deployed, at the end of the day, it is the human being that will complement and make this technology work. There is a very high level awareness drive and everybody is at alert. I know that parents and guardians will be concerned. But let me assure them that everything has been done and will continue to be done. We are keeping in pace and getting reports from the security agents. You spoke about the dress code for lawyers and I know that in some parts of the world, lawyers don’t wear these wig and gown. Why have we stuck to this old tradition we inherited from the British? Don’t forget that the law profession, as we have it in Nigeria, was brought to us by the British. And so, we got it from the source. The traditions of the profession have stayed with us since then. The costumes we wear are symbolic of the profession and the practice of law. It is true that there are countries that have modified their own. South Africa has done away with the wig, but they still use the gown and the beams. In the US, they have made away with the gown and just dress down. In Australia, they still use the wig and gown and in many other countries. I think it is symbolic. The need for change will be informed by those who are in the profession. For now, I don’t think that we have seen the need for any change. If the need arises in the future, it will be addressed.

Captain Femi Olugbode (rtd) was a member of the Third Marine Commando, led by late Benjamin Adekunle during the Nigeria Civil war. In this interview with OSAGIE OTABOR, Captain Femi shares his experience fighting under Adekunle. Excerpts:

WHAT can you say about the late Adekunle?

He was a strict disciplinarian because of his stature. He was not a very tall person. There was a time he referred to himself as Napolean Bonaparte. He was a very good fighter and abhorred indiscipline. There was a time soldiers were deserting the war, just like what is happening in the Boko Haram war now. If you deserted then and you are caught, you were severely punished. Late Adekunle did a lot of things and fought very well before he left the Marine Commando in 1969. Obasanjo took over from him.

What distinguished Adekunle from others?

I remember that during the capture of Owerri, he was always in the battle field. He was always at the forefront. When you have a leader at the front, soldiers will follow you. Adekunle was tough when it came to fighting. He led the soldiers that were just recruited. Only a few of the soldiers under him were welltrained. Others joined during the war. The bulk of them had a crash training programme. He led soldiers that were not properly trained. He had a lot of problem trying to get them to fight. During the recapture of Umuakpo, he was there. There was a cassava plantation there which was the only source of food for civilians and Biafra soldiers, but he made sure his troops took control.

Was there any error made by Adekunle during the war?

Like any human, there is bound to be error. An example was when Biafra soldiers surrounded Owerri and there was no means of getting food to the soldiers, planes were then used to drop foods. A bag of stockfish would be dropped from the plane and most of these things landed on soldiers. That was an error. There was perhaps no choice because there was no way food could get to the soldiers except through the air. You know how it is for a bag of stockfish to land on somebody’s head. In terms of welfare, we were paid the old ten pounds. There was no fixed salary. Soldiers were paid a flat rate, except the officers who earned 30 pounds. The impression was that the salary was being kept in Lagos for us to collect after the war, but a lot of people did not survive the war. They died and did not collect the money. When Obasanjo came, he restored full salary and told us not to worry about what was kept in Lagos, as only those who survived would go back and collect the salary arrears.

Was it Adekunle’s decision to keep the money in Lagos?

He was the GOC. He said salary should not be paid because the soldiers didn’t need it. Anyway, food was available and because of the fear that soldiers were not sure of surviving the war.

Can you recall any situation when Adekunle expressed fears of losing the war?

I was in the College of Army Artillery and not very close to the front. At a place after Calabar, we did not know that Biafran snippers were stationed somewhere. And while we were firing, the snippers hit us hard and wounded 17 officers. Adekunle came to the hospital to visit the soldiers and it was very demoralising. That day, Adekunle almost wept. He was always sad anytime there was casualty on the side of Nigeria. When did you join the Army? I joined in December 1966. I was young and was 21. I had not worked anywhere. I left school and joined the Army. I was in Ibadan then. One of my playmates called Chukwuma used to hit me and I would not strike back because he was a soldier. I then decided to join the Army. Luckily, my uncle, Ariyo, was the Commander of the 12 Battalion, Ibadan. I was trained in Zaria. That was the only approved depot in the country. Later on, I was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in 1969. I was trained in Port Harcourt. A lot of us were commissioned then. After the war, we were told that if we did not improve ourself academically, we would not be commissioned. I started reading on my own, I did my O-level and When Biafra soldiers surrounded Owerri and there was no means of getting food to the soldiers, planes were then used to drop foods. A bag of stockfish would be dropped from the plane and most of these things landed on soldiers. That was an error. There was perhaps no choice because there was no way food could get to the soldiers except through the air. You know how it is for a bag of stockfish to land on somebody’s head ‘ ‘ Captain Femi Olugbode (rtd) was a member of the Third Marine Commando, led by late Benjamin Adekunle during the Nigeria Civil war. In this interview with OSAGIE OTABOR, Captain Femi shares his experience fighting under Adekunle. Excerpts: INTERVIEW went to study journalism. I was a pioneer member of the Army Public Relations Department. That was how I crossed to the media. How did you feel when you were first asked to go to the war front? The first time somebody was killed in my presence was at Koko in Delta State. We captured a Biafran soldier and we questioned him, but he did not respond. They decided to kill him and he said he was prepared to die. We were on a ship because the Third Marine Commando operated with the Nigerian Navy. We were on the NNS Lokoja and the soldier was taken somewhere and killed. I was sad to see somebody killed and I did not eat for three days. One Sergeant started counselling me that I should not worry that somebody was killed. He said the person was an enemy and that he should be killed. That was the baptism of fire for me. After that, I didn’t feel anything killing the enemy. We took oath at our training that we were prepared to die in defence of our nation. What do you think has happened to make Nigerian soldiers want to desert in the war against insurgency? The Nigerian Army is a conventional army. They carry one rifle at a time. But the Boko Haram fighters are unconventional and can carry many weapons at a time. The Boko Haram woud do anything to achieve their aim. The Nigerian Army is welltrained now, but whether they are as committed as we were is another thing. Do you think the war against insurgency can be won? Yes. But there are many things involved. The government did not take it seriously at the beginning. Take the case of the Chibok girls as an example. Some people believed it was political. They were demanding for the pictures. Chieftains of the PDP said it was a lie. If the government were serious, the girls should have been rescued before they were taken far. What happened after the war, especially the coups? I was in Zaria undergoing training when Dimka overthrew Murtala. Our Commander from Kogi State assembled us and told us there was a change of government in Lagos. He said he would keep us posted. He later asked us to drop our weapons at the armoury. He knew the implications of people having weapons when there was a coup. As we were about doing that, students from the Ahmadu Bello University came to take permission that they wanted to demonstrate in support of Dimka. The man asked them to put themselves in his position. The students said they would wait till the next day. The man would have been arrested if he had allowed the students because the coup failed. Nobody came to tell me about the coup. Tell us about your growing up? I was born in Benin, but I hail from Ondo State. I grew up in Benin. My maternal grandfather was the Iyase of Benin to Oba Eweka the second. I speak Bini, Hausa and Yoruba. I schooled in Benin and Ondo State. It was in the Army that I did my O-level and attended the NIJ. It was a smooth transition for me when I left the Army. I was a correspondent for the Nigerian Observer in Ekiti State. I also worked with the National Commentator. I am on my own now. I publish a community newspaper in Ondo State. How did your parents take your joining the Army? I am the only son of my mother. We were three and I am the eldest. I was already doing my training in Zaria before I wrote a letter to tell them that I had joined the Army. I did not tell them before a I joined.

On the occasion of the 10th anniversary of his coronation, Oba Kabiru Agbabiaka, the traditional ruler of Isolo and Secretaryof the Lagos State Council of Obas, speaks with OKORIE UGURU about the challenges he has faced as the Oba of the Lagos community, his plans and other issues. Excerpts:

WHAT would you say have been your major challenges in the 10 years you have been in the saddle as the traditional ruler of Isolo?

I still remember July 11, 2003 when I was finally chosen as the Osolo of Isolo. Some members of this family, who were among the eight contestants for the throne, got angry and decided to challenge my nomination at the High Court. We went to court and the Lagos State Government was stopped from installing me as the Osolo of Isolo. That remained the situation for a whole year before the court injunction was lifted and the court said the government should go ahead and install me. So, I was installed as the next king of Isolo on July 11, 2004. After that, another group of people still went to court to challenge my installation. We fought for good seven years and three months. Eventually, I won. They went on appeal and I also won before they resolved to settle the whole issue amicably.

What were the issues?

 They issues were that they didn’t believe in the traditional means of choosing me by consulting the Ifa oracle and that we all have equal rights to the throne. And because they were my senior in age, they believed that they were supposed to be chosen ahead of me. That was the basis for their going to court. After the judgment, they discovered that the issue was not supposed to be so. We came back to the family and sat down and resolved the whole issue amicably. Some of them were given chieftaincy titles while some are working with me as a family in the palace. So, that was a particular issue that I found difficult. You know what could have happened in terms of expenses, time and so on. But I thank God that He is in control. Today, here I am as the Osolo of Isolo. That is why we all believe that we have to celebrate this 10th anniversary to show to the whole world that we are one and that we are all working together and there is no more problem between us. Everything is going smoothly.

What would you say has changed about your life since you were crowned the Osolo in 2004?

A lot of things have changed. Before I became an Oba, I used to go out to enjoy myself, and there were lots of things that I could do. I could stay outside discussing with my friends or enjoying ourselves. But there is a limit to what I can do now. Things have changed. And it was a challenge because it took me time to adjust. Some of these things have had to go. As a committed Muslim then, I used to find it difficult to relate with traditional believers. But as an Oba now, I have to play my roles according to the tradition of Yoruba land. Now, I have to go and listen to them for any assistance or for anything they think they too should do for the progress and stability of the community. It was a very big challenge that I had to accept because I ought to have taken that into consideration before I decided to contest. Before I became an Oba, I didn’t normally stay at home. I used to travel a lot because of the nature of my business. What business was that? I am an engineer but I ventured into travelling out of the country to buy spare parts for refrigerators and air conditioners in the Arab countries. I found that they were sold at very low prices. For a week or two, I might not be around. It all depended on what I wanted to do then. Now the time is not there anymore. It is not that I don’t travel, but it is not for business. I can no longer return from the airport with big luggage, some of which I put on my head. Things have changed completely. I can no longer show up as an air conditioner and refrigerator spare parts seller. You were known as a top socialite before you became an Oba, sharing relationship with top musicians like KWAM 1.What has become of all that now? It is not all parties that I can attend. The urge of going to club houses to enjoy ourselves is no more there. It is only a few parties which I believe an Oba can be seen there that I attend. I have also have to stop drinking, smoking and other things we considered as part of enjoyment. I cannot go to a party and start drinking or eating anyhow like I used to do as a free man. So, the positions have changed. What has been your achievement in the 10 years that you have been in the saddle? Well, I thank God that a lot of things have been done through my efforts and the efforts of my chiefs and some stakeholders in the community. I remember that we did not have any major hospital in Isolo but some small ones. When I became the Oba, I wrote a lot of letters to the government of Asiwaju Bola Tinubu then. He started the whole issue before Governor Raji Fashola took over. You can see that we now have a very big general hospital; one of the biggest in the state. This happened during my reign. Also, if you came to Isolo before I became the Oba, you would see that you would waste two to three hours on the road to get to Isolo from Mushin or Oshodi. But through my efforts and the efforts of the local government, we were able to let the state government know our views and also explain to them the plight of the people in my area. The government has tried to open up the place and link a lot of other places to Isolo by linking Isolo to Amuwo Odofin. This has been partially done, but the work is still going on. Ajao Estate, which is also part of my domain, has been linked directly to Ejigbo. So, it is another easy access for people going to Ejigbo to spend not up to five minutes before getting there. Many other roads have been expanded and retarred. It is only the ones that belong to the local government that we are still suffering a little from. We are still crying to the state government to carry out other projects, but what they told me was that I should remember I am one out of 57 local government development areas and that they have to listen to other areas also. I thanked them that they listened to us and have carried out a lot of infrastructural development. Some of the stakeholders in Isolo, that is some of the private companies we have in Isolo area, are also doing a lot. They have given a lot of scholarships to students; about 100 every year. Those who want to sit for WAEC, they give out free forms. They have also given a lot of assistance to widows and so on. I am particularly grateful to Promasidor Nigeria; they are doing a lot. Nearly everywhere in Isolo, before you move up to half of a kilometre, you would see a public borehole sunk by Promasidor Nigeria Limited. So, they assist us in many areas and they are trying their best. All this happens through my contact with them; reminding them of their corporate social responsibilities and telling them what they should do for the progress of the community. You can see ultra-modern palace we are building through self help. This has also been done through communal efforts. But we are still expecting the Lagos State Government to come to our aid. The state government has assured me that it will intervene to help finish the palace. If not, I would have celebrated my 10 years in that palace. Since it was not possible, that was the reason I decided to renovate this place before the main palace will be completed. What are your views on the current disagreements among some Yoruba Obas? You see, we have a lot of challenges. Everybody wants to be seen as the most important. It also happens in government. It happens also in the northern and eastern parts of the country. We have history and heritage in Yorubaland. Who does not know the history of the Yoruba among the Yoruba people? But the political class has interfered with the traditional institutions in this country. Everybody wants his own traditional ruler to be seen as the most powerful, once that traditional ruler is supporting a political party. Who does not know the Alaafin of Oyo in the history of the Yoruba? We had the Oyo Empire which was the most powerful institution in Yoruba land. The majority of us, who are now kings, derived directly from this power. The only thing that has happened to the Yoruba race is that I don’t want to accept that you are my leader and you don’t want to accept that I am your leader. That is what is worrying us. There is also ego within the hierarchy of the Yoruba, especially those who have gone into politics. Let me tell you, there is no way an Oba would not play politics. Go to the northern states; they do play politics. They tell their people what they should do and they are in control of them. If you go to the northern state, where many of us who are Yoruba have visited, the whole President, Vice President or whoever has to sit on the floor when they enter the palace of an emir. They have to sit on a mat. But here in Yorubaland, our children, because they are commissioners or whatever, they want to show ego. They want us to know that they are Lagosians and that the blood of British training is in their body, which is not normal. When you are trying to control them, they believe you are not with them. That is why we find it difficult telling you people that a particular government is not doing well. Once you say so, within five minutes, if it is read in the papers, the government will call you and say that you are not supporting their party or you are with the opposition. In view of that, whatever you are asking for from them, they will not do it in time. So, everybody wants his own community to rapidly develop and once you are not supporting or you are saying the truth, for the government to be able to check themselves, you will lack a lot of things. So, nobody is ready to correct this issue. So what is your advice to the government? That the government should give the traditional institution their own separate power so that they can even overrule the statements of the government. Let me tell you something: when you say government, in the olden days, before the British came in, the Obas were the rulers. They ruled their own communities and everything was done successfully. The government ought to come to us for advice and ask what we need. We should not be the ones going to tell them what they should do. And when even at that, there is a limit to what we can say. Every one of you knows this. For the Obas, there should be unity among us. We should accept the history of Yoruba. It doesn’t matter if I happen to become the Alaafin or somebody that is the custodian of the whole history and I am not rich; that does not mean they should snatch my position from me. Ile Ife and Oyo are where everybody comes from, and the ability to prove it is there. Read about the Oyo Empire; Alaafin was the last son of O’odua, but he took over the whole power and he is in control, and that respect has been given to him for a very long time. The history is there to tell; it doesn’t matter whether you are small or big. It is written and that is what we read. Everybody has his own power. An Oba is an Oba, no matter what. It all depends on how you carry yourself. What are some of the dreams you would like to see come true during your reign? The community should be crime-free. Educationally, we have a polytechnic here in Isolo. We have been crying to the government to give it a lift. These are the things we are asking for. Recently, with the help of God, the students and the Lagos State Traditional Council, the Lagos State Government has completely reduced the school fees of the Lagos State University students. How would like to be remembered by your people? I will try my best so that they can remember me positively. How should an Oba be buried, traditionally or according to the Oba’s wish? Traditionally or religiously, burial is burial. Some people tell lies that when an Oba dies, some parts of his body would be separated. That is a capital lie; there is nothing like that. In Yoruba land, you don’t say that an Oba is dead; he has only gone to rest. That is why they won’t allow you to see that he is being buried. Only some certain people should know that the Oba is going to be buried, and they will never remove anything. On a lighter note, why are there so many fuji musicians in your domain? It is because we are socialites and they gain a lot of things from this family. The musicians came to those who were in control of the land as at then. For example, what was supposed to be sold to them at the rate of N1,000, they would say ‘you want to build here? Go and bring two naira.’ We have people like King Wasiu Ayinde, Obesere, the late Sikiru Ayinde Barrister. Pasuma once lived here. He has other properties elsewhere. And the other one that lives in Abeokuta, all of them have houses here. And some of these people you are talking about schooled within this community and they thought it was good for them to have property around here. That is why they are here.