Former Minister for Petroleum, Professor Tam David –West is a known social critic and political activist. In this in this interview with Taiwo Ogundipe, Associate Editor, in Lagos, he addresses the state of emergency, recent comments by Edwin Clark, Asari Dokubo, Kingsley Kuku and sundry matters.
What is your opinion of the state of emergency declared by President Jonathan in three northern states?
The action is constitutional. There is no doubt about that. But is it necessary? I will say it is not. I have listened to people, even legal experts on the television, saying it should have come earlier or that it is better late than ever. To me, they are missing the point. It may be necessary because there is breakdown of public order in the three states. But he could have handled the situation differently. Either he or his advisers, or both of them misled themselves. I often quote this Machiavellian statement: “For the Prince or the Leader to be advised wisely, the leader must be wise in the first place.” There is no problem with sending the armed forces to the states. It has been done in America before during the period of integration. But couldn’t he have sent the troops to the states without declaring a state of emergency? By declaring state of emergency in any area, one obvious thing is that civic liberties which are guaranteed by the constitution are suspended and derogated. The president should have sent the same troops without declaring state emergency. By declaring state of emergency, he is sending a very strong signal to the world that Nigeria is not stable. There is emergency and emergency is insecurity. The president is the number one law enforcement personality stipulated by the constitution. If as a person holding that position, he declares state emergency in an area because security has broken down, you are indicting yourself. It is a personal indictment. As Truman said, the buck stops at the table of the president. As the president and commander-in-chief, the buck stops on the table of Jonathan. He could have sent army to the troubled areas without declaring state of emergency.
But up till now, the Joint Task Force had been deployed to the troubled spots without being able to bring the situation under control…
I’ll come to that. I’ve also said that state of emergency is even worse than fire brigade measures. Fire brigade measure addresses sudden unexpected accident but with state of emergency, there is gradual, progressive breakdown of order and security that get up to a crescendo. Even in the Niger Delta, as I’ve said before, the deployment of the JTF has not achieved peace. I still maintain that it will never achieve peace. The Chief of Army Staff also said it. You cannot quell this problem we have with force of arms. The fundamental issue should be addressed. The problem can be solved. We are not approaching the problem with a clear mindset. For every failure on our part, it makes the other side bolder. I doubt very much if state of emergency will bring about the desired result. I wish it could.
You said a civil approach should be adopted, don’t you think the amnesty programme, offered by the government, which Boko Haram also rejected, is designed to achieve that?
I don’t have superior wisdom but like any other Nigerian, I pray to my God to guide me. I said Joint Task Force would not solve the problem in Niger Delta. The use of force of arms will not also likely solve the Boko Haram problem. The case of Boko Haram is even worse than that of Niger Delta. In Niger Delta you know who you are facing, you know the target. In Boko Haram you don’t know. The president himself has indicted himself.
I’m very critical of Jonathan. One day he will realise that my criticisms are constructive. I don’t want Jonathan to be destroyed as a leader. I want him to perform as a leader. What would I gain from wishing the president of my country to be destroyed, especially when he is an Ijaw man? Being an Ijaw man is even very irrelevant to me. It doesn’t matter to me whether you are an Ijaw man or not. If you are not doing well, you are not doing well. Period.
He came up with amnesty. Jonathan is not consistent. Sometimes he says one thing and changes. Sometimes he confuses himself in logic. Was he not the one that said the Boko Haram were ghosts? Can you negotiate with ghosts? He went further to say he would not negotiate with them because they are ghosts, I don’t know them. If you don’t know them and they are ghosts, then why are you negotiating with them? Why are you talking about amnesty? Amnesty is not a blanket thing; it is not one-way traffic. The two sides would sit down to talk and offer some concessions respectively.
He then went further to say that he had Boko Haram in his government. If he has not been able to identify the Boko Haram whom he claimed were in his government, how can he identify the Boko Haram in the larger community? He is always contradicting himself. I wish he puts more thought process before he makes pronouncements.
Recently, some Ijaw chieftains – Asari Dokubo and Kingsley Kuku – issued statements to the effect that Nigeria will experience turbulence if Jonathan does not return as president in 2015. What do you have to say about this?
Absolute nonsense and rubbish! Asari Dokubo is related to me. He is my cousin. His mother and my mother were of the same father although the two wives were married under different marriage status and customs. Jonathan sees me as an enemy. I told Jonathan that Asari Dokubo and Clark are one million times more problem to him than Tam David-West who criticizes openly and constructively. The problem of Boko Haram is there. And more insurgent groups would spring up if care is not taken. When these people make Jonathan an Ijaw president, not Nigeria president, they create more problems. They are talking rubbish without facts. They call the Hausa/Fulani people parasites; they call Awolowo a criminal. Jonathan as president should not allow his ethnic group to insult other peoples because they are creating enemies for him and no friend. They are adding ethnic dimension to insurgency. This makes the situation more dangerous. Instead of them to be less belligerent in their utterances, they are making the other people to be more resistant. They are talking rubbish and nonsense. Asari Dokubo even said oil production will stop if he is arrested. He said he is the leader of the Niger Delta Volunteer Force. That group does not exist any longer. Asari Dokubo is leading nobody. The other day when he came to Port Harcourt in Rivers State, he hired people to follow him. I know a number of his former followers. The breakup of the group came when he took all the money from government and never gave them their share, and was rather buying property all over the world. So they left him. The group’s name has been changed but still with the same acronym. He told Jonathan he had 40,000 people. Jonathan never found out if he had four or four hundred people and he gave him millions.
The president should dissociate himself from these irresponsible utterances from his ethnic group. He could send his media outfit to please tell the country and the world that these people are not reflecting his views as the president of this country and of all Nigerians. Jonathan is president today not from only Ijaw votes. The total vote he had was about 24 per cent from his area. Jonathan is president today of some sort – illegal and unconstitutional. First, the Save Nigeria Group, SNG, founded and headed by a Yoruba man, Pastor Tunde Bakare and his compatriots forced the National Assembly, when it was reluctant to do the right thing as stipulated by the constitution, to do something. The person that said, look, we must take a stand as government because of the vacuum created by the person the long absence of the late President Yar’adua; the person that moved that motion in the then cabinet, is an Ibo woman, Dora Akunyili.
The person that finally moved the motion in the National Assembly to make him acting president was an Hausa man. There was no Ijaw input. So, can’t he sit down as a PhD holder and think and analyse the situation like an intellectual? Though PhD does not make you an intellectual but it makes you to be broadminded in analysing situations. Everything that made Jonathan what he is today as president, 24 per cent of it came from his ethnic group. The other inputs were from other ethnic groups. His being made acting president was illegal and unconstitutional because our constitution has no provision for acting president. The act was branded doctrine of necessity which has no provision in the constitution. He metamorphosed from acting to becoming the president. With all these considerations, it behoves him as president and an Ijaw man to ask members of his ethnic group to please not make things difficult for him. They should help him to solve the problems he is facing and not add more to them.
I’m more Ijaw than Clark. Clark cannot love Jonathan more than me. Clark is not even partial Ijaw, he is patch-patch Ijaw. When you say someone is partial, you are talking about half and half. Only his father is Ijaw. His mother and grandmother are Urhobo and Itsekiri. When Clark was studying in Britain, he was secretary of the Urhobo Progressive Union, not Ijaw Union.
When Clark and Dokubo talk, they are creating more problems for Jonathan. I don’t know Kingsley Kuku. When he accused Buhari of inciting people, he got it all wrong. Buhari never incited anybody. He only said defend your votes if they wanted to steal your votes. In fact, I would say election riggers should be killed because they are worse than armed robbers. If you have death penalty for armed robbers, election riggers must also have it. Election riggers are worse than armed robbers because they target the whole country not just individuals. Until the day we take proven election riggers and shoot them, there will be no more election rigging.
Asari Dokubo, Clark, Kuku and the rest of them are compounding Jonathan’s problem. He himself has been very docile not to stop them.
Maybe the president feels that on the long run, their utterances and actions would help him.
They cannot help him. Look, if in 2011, the Ijaw votes were 24 per cent, they would be less in 2015. And you cannot be president without the support of other ethnic groups. There cannot be any northern, western or southern president. There cannot be any Moslem or Christian president. The constitution is clear. You will not only win majority of the votes but you have to have 25 per cent in at least 24 states of the federation, that is two third of 36 states. So, Ijaw cannot make you president.
With all these crises that are raging in the South-South axis of the country – including the Bayelsa scenario when erstwhile Governor Sylvia was forced out of office, and now the case of Rivers State where Amaechi is under a lot pressure presumably from the presidency ….
It cannot be presumably. It is certainly from the presidency. Let President Jonathan himself deny that his hand is not there. It is the voice of Esau and the hand of Jacob.
Do you think Amaechi has not done anything wrong to bring the pressure on himself?
Not at all. I will come to that later. Every time they talk, they call Edwin Clark elder statesman. One can be an elder without being a statesman. Edwin Clark may be an elder because of biological age but I’m not sure he is a statesman. A statesman doesn’t talk like he talks. A statesman does not make pronouncements that divide the society. Also, Asari Dokubo’s recent statement that Ijaw people are violent is utter rubbish. The Ijaws are never violent people. He gave examples of the fact that we fought tribal or ethnic wars. He referred to the conflict over fishing rights. The Ijaws were never violent. If they were, the white people that came in through the south wouldn’t have been allowed in. All that is happening now in the South-south engineered by these and sometimes with Jonathan’s collusion or encouragement is making things more difficult for him. It is not endearing him to the bigger Nigerian society and the world.
And I’ve said it before: if all this is being done for Jonathan to be president in 2015, then 2015 has been lost in 2013. 2015 has been forfeited by the excesses and irresponsibility of 2013 coming from people close to him or by his acts of collusion or commission. Take the case of Bayelsa State, I don’t know Sylvia but when they had Kangaroo impeachment of Alamieyeseigha and Ladoja, I came out in the papers, saying the impeachments were illegal, unconstitutional, and null and void. I was vindicated by the Supreme Court. Now, what has Amaechi done to Jonathan? Amaechi is PDP. I had not been in any political party. Amaechi is Ikwerre. I am partly Ikwerre too. Buhari is a Fulani. I’m a die-hard Buhari supporter. I’m also a die-hard Amaechi supporter. I have no apology for saying I’m not in support of Jonathan. I can never be in support of Jonathan because he has not performed well. He has not carried himself well. He has not been able to control the situation. What did Amaechi do wrong to him? Rivers State gave Jonathan the highest number of votes. If the governor was against Jonathan, he couldn’t have got it. The child that forgets the hand that feeds him is not only a bad or wicked child, but also one that is digging his own grave. Amaechi is a solid supporter of Jonathan. And I’m close to Amaechi. He always speaks very glowingly of Jonathan. Whenever we discussed together, he would always remonstrate with me whether my articles were not too critical of Jonathan. And I would explain to him why I was doing what I was doing. I would tell him I was not doing against Jonathan; I’m doing it for us as Nigerians and Ijaw people. If Jonathan messes up there, an Ijaw man would not see that seat for over 60 years in our lifetime. So Amaechi does not deserve what they are doing to him.
The Minister State for Education, Nyesom Wike, who is now fronting for Jonathan, is the closest bossom friend of Amaechi. He was also Amaechi’s Chief of Staff before he became minister. So why are they treating Amaechi the way they are treating him? Jonathan is tilting at the windmill as Don Quixote in the book, The Man of La Mancha. Jonathan is seeing the windmill as enemy, a giant fighting him. He is tilting at an enemy that does not exist. In fact, he is creating more enemies for himself. Amaechi does not deserve what they are doing to him. Every measure has been put in place to deal with him. They are even planning to institute state of emergency against him. They have even brought into the state a fake mace. They are trying to do to him what they did to Alamieyeseigha. I was reading one book on war strategies. It says it is a bad general that opens war frontiers. He dissipates his energy. Sometimes, Jonathan is his own enemy.
Another topical issue is the merger. Obviously, if the merger works, an Ijaw man might not become the candidate.
I don’t care if an Ijaw man is not candidate. I care that a good Nigerian is candidate. I’ve said it before and I mean it: If my father contests against Buhari, – I’m not saying that Buhari is going to be the president , Buhari himself has said it, if the APC has more formidable candidate than himself, he would step down – I will vote against my father.
And talking about the candidacy of Buhari, some people believe he should leave the political space for much younger people. What do you think of this?
That is nonsense. Mandela (of South Africa) and Ronald Reagan (of USA) became presidents in their 70s. Mandela was president up to 80 something. So it is not about age. What is the guarantee that a younger person would do better? In Nigeria we have this nonsensical mindset that we need a younger person with degree. When Buhari met with Mandela, the Madiba said, look, you’ll be president. The story was published. He said he should not abandon the ambition. Mandela and Reagan were older than Buhari when they became president and spent their two terms of eight years. The criteria for candidacy should not be about age. It is irrelevant. Performance should be the criteria. Corruption and indiscipline are our major problems creating setback for us the most. Any candidate that is not corrupt; any candidate that is disciplined; he can be as old as Methuselah, I will not only support him, I will campaign for him to get Nigeria out of darkness. It is not about age or degree. People were jubilating that for the first time we had graduates in Yar’adua and Jonathan as the president and vice-president. Yar’adua has degree in Analytical Chemistry; Jonathan has degree in Hydro-Biology. I said rubbish, degrees don’t make leaders. Jimmy Carter of America had two PhDs in Nuclear Physics and Chemistry. Was he a better American president? Winston Churchill was among the worst in his class in Harrow, very dull in school. He was one of the greatest leaders of the 20th Century. Yar’adua and Jonathan never proved that degrees make better presidents.
The president of Nigeria should be a man of character; a man that can be trusted; a man that is not corrupt; a man that is disciplined; a man that believes in God not by mouth. Some of them go to church on Sunday; some go to mosque on Friday: some to babaalawos to look for miracles. They come into government to rape the country dry. They are not even ashamed. They have houses all over the place. People are suffering. They cannot be pay N8,000 minimum wage. Graduates are looking for driver’s job. Graduates are serving in the restaurants. If we are not yet a failed state, we are fast failing.
Some people believe that Jonathan, a South-south man, should be allowed to for a second term and that the Hausa Fulani should not always expect to always rule the country.
This is another case of what I call lazy intellectualism. First, does Jonathan have the right to go second term? I think the constitution allows him. The interpretation that he had been sworn in second term is contentious. First, he completed Yar’adua’s term. I don’t dislike him. I just don’t like the way he rules the country. I’ve told him I’ll never support him. I don’t need anything from him. What I need from him is good governance and consistency which he is not giving us. He should talk less with some rationality. He can only ask for a second term when the first time is glorious. He should act with clear conscience. He should go to the Redeemed Church and kneel down before the great man of God, and say God, I’ve done well. Can he say that? No! His performance in the first term has been woeful. Another issue is the allegation that he signed to rule for one term. Jonathan has to disprove this allegation with facts and figure.
