In what appears like a valedictory interview, Governor Babatunde Raji Fashola, out-going governor of Lagos State took on some senior journalist in his office last week in a long session. Every question could have been asked and he answered them all – well, almost all. Sometimes convivial and sometimes combative, it could have been a talking database fielding questions. He spoke seamlessly about eight years of government that is at once exemplary and robust in results and also intriguing. In the beginning, he said, “Some people thought my coming was a huge joke” destined to unravel sooner. Steve Osuji, Member of Editorial Board, was present. Excerpts:
What are the things you would miss most when you leave Government House?
I cannot think of missing anything, this is a public trust; it has a beginning and an end and it finishes when it is finished. My life did not change when I took the job. Not in any way that I know. My food has not changed, my clothing has not changed. Perhaps the only thing that I had to do more was travelling. Now, I have to travel less. But this is not something to miss, this is something to say you have done your bit, get off the stage and let the next manager take over.
What would you consider the biggest problem you are leaving behind for your successor?
Well, I didn’t govern to leave problems for my successor. And let me say, first of all, government loses its relevance when there are no more challenges. The only reason government exists is to solve problems. I inherited my own challenges; my predecessor inherited his. But I can say that what we expect to see is that the job gets easier as we move on, and so all we have done here is to improve the quality of what we met in order to make it easier for the next person. We built stronger institutions, we have strengthened ministries; we have increased revenues in order to meet increasing demands. We have strengthened government’s capacity to provide services. We have just set up a citizens’ relation management platform on the internet so that government is able to more efficiently respond to issues for people using the current communication method of internet and telephone. But every problem that we solved creates new problems; that’s life.
From hindsight, are there some things you think you could have done differently?
As for things that I could have done differently, hindsight is 20/20. As I said recently at an event, our job is like actors on the public stage, but the stage is life; we are making videos, cinemas, live productions, unending productions. So, unlike the great movies that you see that there’s is room for edit or retake, we don’t have retakes. It’s done, it’s done. And so in that sense, for two thousand, nine hundred and something days, every minute of the day you are called to act either in the file or on the phone or in the meeting. So you do that from morning till night, almost 16 or 17 hours every day.
I have taken hundreds of thousands of decisions, could I have gotten all of them right? Certainly not! But I acted in the circumstance of what I understood the problem to be; I acted in the circumstance of what time of the day it was, I acted in the circumstance of how tired I was. I would rather make a decision than postpone a decision; I would rather be guilty of making a wrong decision than be found not to have decided anything.
So, in that sense, I can’t get everything right. That’s why I would never know how many people were adversely affected by my decisions. But it is always important to let people understand that this is a public trust, it’s not personal.
What has been the relationship of Lagos State and the federal government under President Jonathan, knowing this state is the commercial capital of the country and it has always been ruled by the opposition party?
Let me just quickly share some information. Most of what we have done here; housing, waste management, LASTMA, tax collection, public works management, we have compiled into short notes. We will be unveiling it and presenting it to the public soon. The whole idea is that any state that wants to see what we have done, the methodology we have applied, how we were able to identify problems, solutions we deployed, who worked on what, the results achieved and the impact we have seen.
In terms of relationship, I don’t know what kind of relationship you mean, but first of all President Jonathan was the President of Nigeria. As a governor, we had reasons to work together because Lagos State is one of the states that make up the Federal Republic of Nigeria and if Lagos works well he has one less problem to worry about.
Officially, I think we had a decent working relationship, but there were things we wanted done that we couldn’t get done and whatever the reasons were, were not communicated officially. We have been unable to reclaim N51 billion we spent on federal government roads here – that’s income the in-coming government should, hopefully, get. We thought the nation should have a forensic laboratory following the serious security issues we were dealing with. I wrote to the president, I wrote to the National Assembly; we did the preliminary work, we spent our money doing the consultancy. We were advised (by the consultants) to locate it towards Badagry so that the West African sub region could benefit from it. Recalled the Synagogue collapse where we had to take samples out to South Africa and to US to do DNA testing, when we could build capacity here; and we are complaining about unemployment. We told them the land was available and the initial work was done. It’s going to cost N80 billion, but you don’t have to spend that at once; in fact, if you spent N40 billion you would have a functional forensic lab. I told them they didn’t have to do everything at once, that with N10 to N15 billion we could have started and we could have had a lab in place. But I didn’t get an official response.
There were things like coastal erosion challenges in a village towards Ibeju Lekki. The President came and we showed him; we set the cost and asked for help but we didn’t get any. We had to collapse our budget for that year because it was going to cost about thirty-something billion naira to solve the problem. I don’t want to be understood as recriminating, but I know things could have been better.
There must be some meeting points, some areas the FG cooperated with the state during your time?
Yes, when we had the flood in Ajegunle towards Ikorodu, he (President Jonathan) gave us N700 million. I know the money was paid because we have an ecological fund account. Because I have heard all sorts of things about ecological funds, I kept the money in a dedicated account and we were using the money to construct a resettlement camp, housing estate for people affected by that flooding. The money is still not fully utilised because many of the buildings are in the roofing stage, fitting stage. We’ve gotten support for our Free Trade Zone from the Ministry of Trade, not cash, but a good word that government is supporting something gives you confidence.
At a time you were being touted as the Vice Presidential candidate, how do you feel losing out….
I don’t like being touted and you cannot be said to have lost if you are touted, you can only lose if you contest. As I have told everybody who cared to listen, you don’t contest for vice-president, you don’t contest for deputy governor; it is the mandate holder, the flag bearer who picks his running mate. So, I don’t feel any how because I didn’t even know if I was being considered or not and I still had a job to do here. And don’t forget I have been in government for 12 years, not eight years. So, I need a break now, or don’t you think I need a break?
Security is one of the greatest strength of your administration… given fillip by the recent arrest of the Lekki robbers…what does it say about the security architecture of the state?
What we would like to see is a crime-free state, but in reality no such thing exists. And every city, every town, every nation deals with some form of crime. But what government must do is to out-think, out-maneouvre, out-spend the criminal because the criminal is in business and we must see them as our competitors for safety and we must defeat the competitor. And I think we have done that largely.
Every government as far as security is concerned must be right all the time; the criminal must be right only once. So, those are the odds; we have no margin for errors. In that sense, what government then does is to demonstrate not only that it can prevent crime but it can also apprehend criminals and that’s what we have done consistently.
And the Lekki robbery as unfortunate as it was with the loss of lives that we suffered on that day and the brazen conduct of the criminals, our security architecture has shown that it can respond. We have found and apprehended some of the members of the gang and we are still on their trail. It’s a good reputation to have because I remember one criminal the police have been looking for across Nigeria; it was here that we apprehended him. And I remember during interview with him, he said the police in Lagos don’t forget. That’s a good reputation to have; so people who test our will must know that we do not forget and we will come after them and we will bring them to justice. But the important thing to do is anticipate their capacities and prevent them from being successful in harming our people.
It seems the neighbourhood gangs may have stumped you as they have relentlessly been a menace to Lagosians?
You cannot isolate a very large youthful population with the challenges of unemployment from restive youth gangs. And that is why we have spent a lot of time and a lot of resources in developing grassroots sports. And we have created a calendar of sporting activities that runs for nine months every year, from one classic event to the other; from chess classes, to lawn tennis classes to swimming classes to table tennis classes to boxing classes. But the classes are at the top end of the competition. What we have done also is to go right from secondary school to their environment and get them involved in one game or the other. And we have all sorts of competitions, grassroots competition… trying to keep them busy. We have also built sport centres across Agege, Campos Square, Ifako Ijaiye, Epe and so on.
And as I said, from time to time we will have young people doing the wrong things. If it continues for a day or two, we step in and bring it under control. And we must also deal with problem of drug abuse and all of these things do not start and end on the desk of government. They start largely with the families and we must take parenting very seriously and resist the temptation to abdicate our parental responsibilities, because the first government starts from the home.
Are you concerned about the degree of expectations from the Buhari presidency?
Expectations come with the moment. There’s a lot of hope in the country and that’s the most I would like to say, except to remind all of us that the mandate holder himself has continuously made statements seeking to manage the expectations. And you also have heard from the vice president-elect that these expectations will be managed. I’m going to resist the temptation to be quoted as speaking for them, it’s inappropriate to do so. I have also, in that sense, found myself not agreeing with some of the reports I read in the papers, people saying they are setting agenda for them. I think it’s wrong because you voted on the basis of an agenda, so what new agenda are you setting, unless you didn’t understand the meaning of social contract? They made a promise: security, corruption and the economy.
Those were the three platforms upon which they campaigned. So, you can’t set an agenda after the vote. Because I assume that was what you were voting for. The British people are not setting an agenda for David Cameron, they knew what he was offering; that was what they voted for. So, we must help to enrich the understanding of the nature of democracy; the things you can fairly hold them to account for. That doesn’t mean they will leave others, I’m not speaking for them but I don’t expect that they will ignore other sectors. But that’s what they campaigned on and that’s what they won on. What I can share with you now is: that was what the poll results were saying, because they did a poll across Nigeria and those were what were highest on the list of what people wanted: security was number one, corruption was number two, the economy came third.
People have said that it is as if Fashola went to sleep in his second term, though he did a few things… some have also said he did more in the elite, highbrow neighbourhoods like V.I and Lekki than he did downtown Ejigbo and Alimosho?
Let me say first that in the first term, I was largely unknown. Some people even genuinely thought that I should not be governor. Some people genuinely thought that perhaps we were going to be a joke. So, perhaps, in that sense, we now had people saying, “wait a minute, something serious is happening here.” And, of course, as I said earlier, once you solve a problem, you create a new problem. Now on the debate about first term and second term: I can tell you today that my second term was harder than my first term. As many governors will tell you, I think those of us who have compared notes have found the second term harder than the first. And in the fullness of time, those who are starting their second term will tell you the realities of their experience.
And you also see even at the international level; look at a second term Barak Obama and begin to make your comparisons. Look at his ratings in his first term and look at his ratings in his second term; that’s the reality of life. We have a continuing debate in our executive council that we had two teams – the 2007-2011 team and 2011-2015 team – and we also challenged ourselves which team would beat the other. I was the captain of the first team and the captain of the second team as well. It was a mind game that we always played in order to keep ourselves on our toes.
And even I can’t decide now as the leader of the two teams who won because, again, the circumstances were different. The first team came in at a time when there were relatively smaller resources, with an IGR of seven billion. But there were relatively higher oil revenues. But the second team came in, built the revenue from N16/N17 billion to 20-22 billion, but oil revenues have now headed south. Now over the last four years, and four years before the realities of Nigeria have also changed. And you cannot be immune from the realities of a larger society of which you are a subset.
That’s why Alimosho and Ejigbo concern you raised must be put in context. You must understand also that societies don’t evolve overnight. The Lekki you are pointing fingers to, in 1999 Lekki had no electricity. Those who were living in Lekki were running on two generators; one for the day and one at night. It was the Lagos State Government then that did the electrification of Lekki Phase 1. That upped the demand for real estate there and they started doing the roads.
But as far as Alimosho is concerned, if I show you the numbers; we have spent more money in Alimosho on roads than on any other local government – Alimosho and Ifako Ijaiye. And the reason is simple; the shortest road we have dealt with in Alimosho is two kilometres. Most of the roads in Victoria Island, Ikoyi, 500 metres, 1.1 kilometres. LASU-Iba road in Alimosho liking Ikotun to Iba is 17 kilometres, dual carriageways with about seven bridges. Do the maths. Igbo-Elerin to Badagry is about six kilometres of dual carriageway with street lights and drainage. Sand-filling alone to get the level of the Igbo-Elerin road, you don’t want to know how many trips of sand went there.
Now Ejigbo: a part of it is federal. That’s where the tankers pass everyday and if I don’t get my N51 billion – some people are asking: why are you spending money on federal roads?
Now let’s go to Isheri-Ijegun bridge, do you know how much went into that? Over a thousand piles went into that bridge. The shortest of those is about 35 metres deep which is the equivalent of about 12-storey building. Okota also links to that road through another route. At that time, the only way to come through Ejigbo-Isolo was to go first to Mushin; we have provided an alternative. Which road carries the heaviest traffic forms our consideration for picking which to do first. And remember that every year we are limited by a budget, by what we can do for that year.
In now choosing where to go, the greatest good for the greatest number, that’s the decision-making litmus test, not the greatest good for everybody. Nobody has ever achieved it. So, we look in that year and say, where can we do the greatest good this year? Which road out of all these competing roads carries the heaviest traffic so that you can get on it? You see the way we are coming from Agege Motor Road, Iyana Ipaja we are coming gradually creating a connectivity because you will see a bus route that was not there before.
There’s a question that I ask every governor I meet and it concerns the state of our local governments. If local governments are working in Lagos for instance, most of the inner roads would have been repaired. And this applies to every part of the country. Does it not worry you that local governments are not working in this country?
It’s a long story. When I read some of the comments that have been passed about local government, I only wish I could read more informed comments. And I say this with every sense of respect. Has somebody taken a local government as a case study? What is the staff strength? What are the responsibilities that are thrust upon it by the Constitution? Not the responsibilities that it assumes by itself. What are the resources that it gets? The local government is so relevant to our lives that all of us want to walk away from it by refusing to participate when it comes to local government elections.
I have suggested that we should probably change the name as everybody wants to be a senator or governor. I don’t like people criticising, if you must, come and feel the effect. Before you can say somebody is not doing a good job of something, what resources does that person have to the job? It’s easy to say that a bad workman complains of his tool but tools help. We shouldn’t generalise local governments because some local governments in all of these have made efforts. Just as the state governor can’t reach everybody, so is the local government not able to reach everybody. And all of these things are relative and contextual.
Even the most brilliant person, the most skilful person, if you come there without resources, can you make water out of stone? It’s hard. And what kind of local government? We voted for autonomous local government. The Constitution says the local government chairman must be voted for, where does the autonomy come from? It’s the people that have elected you. They say governors seize their money and they make all sorts of generalisations and I say I don’t sit in their meeting. The Constitution created a format for remitting their money: State/local government joint account. We can show that the money came through us and got to the local council. I don’t know about other states, but in Lagos local councils receive their allocation.
A lot of your admirers are of the opinion that though you have succeeded as a governor, you have not done well as politician because you don’t have a political structure of your own…and in addition, would you recommend what I consider the Lagos template of separating political affairs from governance?
There are what I call a lot of uninformed commentaries that have almost matured into verdicts. In life you must understand what skill set you have and you must understand in what ways you can best use the opportunities that come your way. And even in journalism, some people are very good as on-the-spot reporters, some people are masters of editorials, some people are very good copywriters, and so if you get involved and choose to pitch your tent in an area where you just diffuse yourself that’s okay for you. What I did here was to be honest with myself and asked, what was the purpose of governance? To impact lives through development, that appealed to me. Now, how was I going to get the best out of my time? Can I sit here from 8am to 10pm every day at work, and then from 10pm to 5am every day holding meetings for political purposes? Is there a separate 24 hours meant for politics and another 24 hours meant for governance? It’s how well you choose to use the time. I now said I have a predecessor who is living in very good health, he still has energy, he’s more of a politician than me. I met him in politics, he has experience; so we found a model that works for us. For me, I always find a way to solve a problem. People can choose the hard way, that’s their choice.
It is believed that you have no political structure…
…That’s what I’m saying to you that such commentators are uninformed. What is this so-called structure about? Where are governors who had all the structures, today? If I have no structure, I’m happy. Some people who controlled their houses of assembly eventually found out that they couldn’t pass a budget. Governors who believed they controlled their houses have been impeached. Honestly, I think we are getting all of these things wrong. We should be more definitive instead of being peripheral and understand how these things work.
It is believed that that is why your candidate lost in the Lagos primary…?
Again, all of you are coming to second hand conclusions. Yes, all of you made money in the newspapers, right? Excuse me, our party is taking credit for an open and transparent primaries. I was not the one running. So, why should the fact that somebody’s running create a problem for me? I am a process person; we (our party) have a process. You want to run, go to the party secretariat, nobody was prevented from running.
Many believe you are a technocrat and not a politician?
Again, I have said I will not lend myself to all of these beliefs and stereotypes; that somebody is a politician, somebody is not a politician. It’s like when people say Yemi Osinbajo is a technocrat. Somebody who is married to the Awolowo family and was eight years as Attorney General here to a governor that exuded political public presence and you say he’s a technocrat. Maybe you should ask yourself whether you are the one who is getting it wrong. Can you actually be in a government at the management level without being a politician? It’s like people who studied law ending up in management positions of banks and you say they are not bankers. My friend Aig Imoukhuede; perhaps many of you don’t know, studied law from the University of Benin. So, go and tell him he’s not a banker. What is politics? It’s a noble calling, management of human lives, human affairs. That’s what we do every day, solving problems.
Is it true that there’s a cold war between you and Asiwaju Bola Ahmed Tinubu according to social media offerings?
You have allowed unfounded rumours to build as facts. I am trained to only respond to facts. Unless you give me facts, I won’t respond to hypothetical questions when they concern relationships. Social media who? If it’s a twitter handle is it his own or her own? If people hide behind social media, cowards who cannot reveal who they are and start fabricating stories, I won’t dignify them with a response. That’s not an efficient way to use my time. But if somebody makes an allegation, then I can confront the person. But social media, people who are faceless, they are cowards. Let’s use our time more efficiently; we are in the season of change.
Many of your colleagues are going to the Senate. Did it cross your mind to contest to be one; is it right to do so?
Many of my colleagues went to the senate. I didn’t see myself as a legislator. The legislative work also requires certain skill set, let me be clear about that. Was it the right thing to do? For me, it may not be right, for you it may be right; but it’s not illegal. It’s also important to be honest with yourself; four-and-a-half years as chief of staff, eight years as governor, there must be a time when you feel that you have served in the public space enough. If I wasn’t given the opportunity that I had you won’t have known about me, would you? There are so many people out there we must yield the space to. There’s a lot of work to do in this country.
