Rowland Oritsejafor, a Minister of Defence (state) during Chief Olusegun Obasanjo’s administration, has ‘resurfaced’ after a long hiatus from the political scene. He spoke with journalists in Warri on diverse issues, including politics and award of contracts to former Niger Delta militants. SHOLA O’NEIL was there.
n how to deal with post-election violence
I think the Federal Government has taken the right step in dealing with what we call the adverse outcome but it is all about people. I am happy that Nigerians know what they want and there are committees in place; bringing people from different sides of the divide to come and talk and look at ways of handling it. There is Prof Akinyemi, the former foreign affairs Minister and I know my brother Pastor Ayo Oritsejafor (CAN) and Muslim religious leaders are meeting and that is the way it should be. We have to be proactive and be prepared so that we are not taken by surprise. More importantly, it is not about those leaders, it is about all of us. We have a special role to play to keep telling the people that Nigeria is one. There is no point talking about one man one vote and when it comes out you say no if the party of your choice does not come out victorious there is no need to be violence.
On threat by Tompolo, Asari others and the fact that it was made at a government house.
The militants only reacted to what the Northern have said. Let us be conscious in analyzing security situation. Where you make a statement does not suggest or mean that it is the party’s policy. Let’s get that very clear. I can be invited to Aso Rock and then I make a statement, does that mean that the president supported what I said. Let us be very clear, PDP is a peaceful government with well-respected and responsible people. There is no way the PDP would support violence. Some people are making statements, I cannot come and defend those statements because I don’t know from where they are coming and I wasn’t there. However, as far as PDP is concern, we will pursue peace and it is in our interest to pursue peace. So why would we want to invest in violence when we have opportunity to show what we can do. You can hear the president going round, it is all about what he has done and he keeps rolling them out.
In the past, indeed of our faults as a party is that we underreported our achievement and we are correcting that now and things are taking a better shape so I don’t see what we should embrace violence.
The award of security contracts to the ex-militants, including Tompolo, has raised dust, do you think the president got it right?
All over the world it is people that acquire weapons as long as you have the license to do it. To me that is not the problem. We have to be very careful with this issue. We should not politicize everything. Every Nigerian citizen has the right to acquire weapons if he is licensed. But unless you have something against them and you have taken them to a competent court of law. Yes these guys were militants. But let me ask you a question, do these guys have a cause for carrying arm against the Federal Government? The fact they were militants does not stop them from partaking in activities going on in the country. They carried arms because they were oppressed and when they protested, government recognized that they have been wronged and the matter was corrected.
Beyond politics, do you think President Jonathan deserves another term?
He has done so much. The challenges are colossal but if you look at governance, he has brought governance closer to the people in different area. Is it transportation, electricity has improved. We are talking about measurable indices of performance. Since I came to Warri the light has not tripped and no generator and you know power is key to us. Things are happening you can see gender equality. The president of Rwanda became extremely popular because of given opportunities to women folks in terms of governance and you can see what is happening here; he brought in trusted woman who are doing well in the area of government.
Security is a great challenge, it is unfortunate, but the mistake between us and those who have security in their country is that security is not left only in the hands of profession; everybody has to be cautious in the area of security. It is only then that you can help the professionals to achieve what they want. People who are throwing bombs are living among us. Why are we silent, why are we not observant and why do we wait till people are killed, maimed and property destroyed before we start shouting. I want to appeal that security is collective responsibility. It should not be used as an index of political achievement. That will be sad. All of us, our lives are important, are future and property are important so we must all be committed to the security of the nation.
If you were not PDP member, would you think the PDP-led Federal Government got its strategy right in the fight against Boko Haram?
I am opportune as Minister of State for Defence, by my service and experience I have an idea of how it works. Security is not about one plus one equals two, especially when you are talking of insurgency. Let’s get some fundamentals right: one, the theatre of war has changed; it is no more conventional or traditional when you have people on one side and another on the other side and you determine this is the theatre of war and you start shooting or killing until you take prisoners and know you have won. The world has moved on. These days, the theatre has changed, the weapons have changed, and the rules of engagement have change. People can be in their kitchen and are making weapons that are lethal and are very fatal in their activities. Similarly, your enemy is living with you, so it is difficult to say this is the way it should have gone and this is how it shouldn’t have gone. That is why am talking about collective responsibility.
Two, a government is to protect the people – these same people. Do you know how painful it was to use our tax money to acquire weapons, to prepare do you know how painful it was for me – I used to go around talking about it – to give order to turn that same weapon against Nigerians for whatever reason? These are the constraints. You need wisdom and tact and you have to be careful and sure when you start using the weapon against your own people, destroying your own people. It is not an easy fight when you have the enemy on the other side. They are Nigerians who are misguided. Initially it was difficult, but when you appeal and tell them and yet they are not abating in their commitment to destruction, you have to step up ways of handling. For me, that is what we should be looking at and not staying aside and scoring. It is a difficult situation and Mr President has my sympathy. It is a loss to all of us and not to one party or another. Those killing, the victims and those constrained about fighting back are also Nigerians. It is a sad situation.
How is it different from the Niger Delta situation that you handled?
The beauty about the Niger Delta situation is that leaders played a constructive and prominent role in arresting the situation. It came out from neglect and when the youths took arms because they believed that the leaders were too slow and had to fight to get it right, the leaders were all around them tried to guard and direct them and the government listened and we know about amnesty and all kinds of peace deals. In those days when the Ijaws and Itsekiris were fighting, this is an Itsekiri home, the Ijaws who were carrying arms were coming here to have meetings with us. Leaders had a major role in trying to make them understand that this is not the way to go. I was highly involved in the different peace movements, going to the creeks to talk to them and today we have the benefit of it.
Are you satisfied with the president’s handling of corruption in the past six years?
I am not satisfied with the way corruption is being highlighted generally. However, it terms of what my party is doing about it, it is like death sentence, it has not prevented armed robbery; robbery is still on the high side. It is like when you are doing something and not achieving the right result, you must withdraw and re-strategize and that is what the president is doing. The issue is not just putting people in jail or whatever. But let us try and let them understand that it is madness to steal from yourself – the money belongs to all of us. Lay emphasis on education, make people understand that what you are doing is not only embarrassing yourself, you are creating problems for generations to come. So the strategy which the president is taking is working. I talked about underreporting, go to EFCC and look at the statistics of prosecutions that have taken place in this administration and compare it with others.
Corruption is being tackled but let it show that the way you tackled it is not the way to go. Before you take them to court, you put them in the papers, television and you harass them that is not the way to go. Human’s rights must be respected. We are interested in redirection, in rehabilitation and not punitive measures, punitive measures have not paid, it is just emotional.
What most Nigerians want to see is prosecution of political officeholders and looters of treasuries, not the just the 419 cases the EFCC is going. Prosecution during past administrations may be fewer but some notable politicians were arrested and tried. We had issues of N200m cars and alleged fraud in the NNPC and others.
We have a justice system and we have to be very careful. Politicians are not those that execute justice, we must have confidence in our judiciary system. You do not expect the President to be the policeman, investigator and judge. Let’s get those very clear. When you make statement about specific issues, you (journalist) are in a better position to investigate in terms of evidence that can be used for prosecution.
How would you compare Obasanjo’s approach to fighting corruption and that of the present administration?
I have just told you that it is not about coming to papers, before you take people to court, you find them guilty, it is not about making noise, collect evidence and do your work quietly. Meanwhile, think of reintegrating and redirecting the people involved because they are Nigerians. For me, that is the style I prefer but I am not going to be comparing one administration with the other. I cannot see with your eyes, this is a free country.
How would you access the presidential candidate of the APC, Gen Muhammadu Buhari?
In the first place, to a lot of people, he is the symbol of the old traditional way of doing things and a symbol of failure. He has not won any election. If you do something and it’s not yielding result, you have to change your style, is it not madness? Is he the only person in that party?
People would tell you too that Abraham Lincoln, who contested several elections and lost but won the only time he contested the presidential election..
Abraham Lincoln survived because the people of America believed in him. But if Buhari is able to convince them that he is the better candidate and they believed him then so be it. If not there are other younger candidates in the party that they should have projected instead of Buhari. That is my personal opinion.
n how to deal with post-election violence
I think the Federal Government has taken the right step in dealing with what we call the adverse outcome but it is all about people. I am happy that Nigerians know what they want and there are committees in place; bringing people from different sides of the divide to come and talk and look at ways of handling it. There is Prof Akinyemi, the former foreign affairs Minister and I know my brother Pastor Ayo Oritsejafor (CAN) and Muslim religious leaders are meeting and that is the way it should be. We have to be proactive and be prepared so that we are not taken by surprise. More importantly, it is not about those leaders, it is about all of us. We have a special role to play to keep telling the people that Nigeria is one. There is no point talking about one man one vote and when it comes out you say no if the party of your choice does not come out victorious there is no need to be violence.
On threat by Tompolo, Asari others and the fact that it was made at a government house.
The militants only reacted to what the Northern have said. Let us be conscious in analyzing security situation. Where you make a statement does not suggest or mean that it is the party’s policy. Let’s get that very clear. I can be invited to Aso Rock and then I make a statement, does that mean that the president supported what I said. Let us be very clear, PDP is a peaceful government with well-respected and responsible people. There is no way the PDP would support violence. Some people are making statements, I cannot come and defend those statements because I don’t know from where they are coming and I wasn’t there. However, as far as PDP is concern, we will pursue peace and it is in our interest to pursue peace. So why would we want to invest in violence when we have opportunity to show what we can do. You can hear the president going round, it is all about what he has done and he keeps rolling them out.
In the past, indeed of our faults as a party is that we underreported our achievement and we are correcting that now and things are taking a better shape so I don’t see what we should embrace violence.
The award of security contracts to the ex-militants, including Tompolo, has raised dust, do you think the president got it right?
All over the world it is people that acquire weapons as long as you have the license to do it. To me that is not the problem. We have to be very careful with this issue. We should not politicize everything. Every Nigerian citizen has the right to acquire weapons if he is licensed. But unless you have something against them and you have taken them to a competent court of law. Yes these guys were militants. But let me ask you a question, do these guys have a cause for carrying arm against the Federal Government? The fact they were militants does not stop them from partaking in activities going on in the country. They carried arms because they were oppressed and when they protested, government recognized that they have been wronged and the matter was corrected.
Beyond politics, do you think President Jonathan deserves another term?
He has done so much. The challenges are colossal but if you look at governance, he has brought governance closer to the people in different area. Is it transportation, electricity has improved. We are talking about measurable indices of performance. Since I came to Warri the light has not tripped and no generator and you know power is key to us. Things are happening you can see gender equality. The president of Rwanda became extremely popular because of given opportunities to women folks in terms of governance and you can see what is happening here; he brought in trusted woman who are doing well in the area of government.
Security is a great challenge, it is unfortunate, but the mistake between us and those who have security in their country is that security is not left only in the hands of profession; everybody has to be cautious in the area of security. It is only then that you can help the professionals to achieve what they want. People who are throwing bombs are living among us. Why are we silent, why are we not observant and why do we wait till people are killed, maimed and property destroyed before we start shouting. I want to appeal that security is collective responsibility. It should not be used as an index of political achievement. That will be sad. All of us, our lives are important, are future and property are important so we must all be committed to the security of the nation.
If you were not PDP member, would you think the PDP-led Federal Government got its strategy right in the fight against Boko Haram?
I am opportune as Minister of State for Defence, by my service and experience I have an idea of how it works. Security is not about one plus one equals two, especially when you are talking of insurgency. Let’s get some fundamentals right: one, the theatre of war has changed; it is no more conventional or traditional when you have people on one side and another on the other side and you determine this is the theatre of war and you start shooting or killing until you take prisoners and know you have won. The world has moved on. These days, the theatre has changed, the weapons have changed, and the rules of engagement have change. People can be in their kitchen and are making weapons that are lethal and are very fatal in their activities. Similarly, your enemy is living with you, so it is difficult to say this is the way it should have gone and this is how it shouldn’t have gone. That is why am talking about collective responsibility.
Two, a government is to protect the people – these same people. Do you know how painful it was to use our tax money to acquire weapons, to prepare do you know how painful it was for me – I used to go around talking about it – to give order to turn that same weapon against Nigerians for whatever reason? These are the constraints. You need wisdom and tact and you have to be careful and sure when you start using the weapon against your own people, destroying your own people. It is not an easy fight when you have the enemy on the other side. They are Nigerians who are misguided. Initially it was difficult, but when you appeal and tell them and yet they are not abating in their commitment to destruction, you have to step up ways of handling. For me, that is what we should be looking at and not staying aside and scoring. It is a difficult situation and Mr President has my sympathy. It is a loss to all of us and not to one party or another. Those killing, the victims and those constrained about fighting back are also Nigerians. It is a sad situation.
How is it different from the Niger Delta situation that you handled?
The beauty about the Niger Delta situation is that leaders played a constructive and prominent role in arresting the situation. It came out from neglect and when the youths took arms because they believed that the leaders were too slow and had to fight to get it right, the leaders were all around them tried to guard and direct them and the government listened and we know about amnesty and all kinds of peace deals. In those days when the Ijaws and Itsekiris were fighting, this is an Itsekiri home, the Ijaws who were carrying arms were coming here to have meetings with us. Leaders had a major role in trying to make them understand that this is not the way to go. I was highly involved in the different peace movements, going to the creeks to talk to them and today we have the benefit of it.
Are you satisfied with the president’s handling of corruption in the past six years?
I am not satisfied with the way corruption is being highlighted generally. However, it terms of what my party is doing about it, it is like death sentence, it has not prevented armed robbery; robbery is still on the high side. It is like when you are doing something and not achieving the right result, you must withdraw and re-strategize and that is what the president is doing. The issue is not just putting people in jail or whatever. But let us try and let them understand that it is madness to steal from yourself – the money belongs to all of us. Lay emphasis on education, make people understand that what you are doing is not only embarrassing yourself, you are creating problems for generations to come. So the strategy which the president is taking is working. I talked about underreporting, go to EFCC and look at the statistics of prosecutions that have taken place in this administration and compare it with others.
Corruption is being tackled but let it show that the way you tackled it is not the way to go. Before you take them to court, you put them in the papers, television and you harass them that is not the way to go. Human’s rights must be respected. We are interested in redirection, in rehabilitation and not punitive measures, punitive measures have not paid, it is just emotional.
What most Nigerians want to see is prosecution of political officeholders and looters of treasuries, not the just the 419 cases the EFCC is going. Prosecution during past administrations may be fewer but some notable politicians were arrested and tried. We had issues of N200m cars and alleged fraud in the NNPC and others.
We have a justice system and we have to be very careful. Politicians are not those that execute justice, we must have confidence in our judiciary system. You do not expect the President to be the policeman, investigator and judge. Let’s get those very clear. When you make statement about specific issues, you (journalist) are in a better position to investigate in terms of evidence that can be used for prosecution.
How would you compare Obasanjo’s approach to fighting corruption and that of the present administration?
I have just told you that it is not about coming to papers, before you take people to court, you find them guilty, it is not about making noise, collect evidence and do your work quietly. Meanwhile, think of reintegrating and redirecting the people involved because they are Nigerians. For me, that is the style I prefer but I am not going to be comparing one administration with the other. I cannot see with your eyes, this is a free country.
How would you access the presidential candidate of the APC, Gen Muhammadu Buhari?
In the first place, to a lot of people, he is the symbol of the old traditional way of doing things and a symbol of failure. He has not won any election. If you do something and it’s not yielding result, you have to change your style, is it not madness? Is he the only person in that party?
People would tell you too that Abraham Lincoln, who contested several elections and lost but won the only time he contested the presidential election..
Abraham Lincoln survived because the people of America believed in him. But if Buhari is able to convince them that he is the better candidate and they believed him then so be it. If not there are other younger candidates in the party that they should have projected instead of Buhari. That is my personal opinion.
