Would you say your early life has any influence on who you are today?
I was born into a subsistence farming family. I worked with my parents till the age of 15 when I was considered too young to undergo the stress of subsistent farming. Perhaps I was destined to be different. My father was polygamous. I was the 17th child of my father and number sixth of my mother. Some of my brothers and sisters were already in their 30s when I was born. My parents thought I could be spared the rigour of farming and so agreed that I be sent to a formal school.
At that time, the white man was here destroying our culture with his civilization. The colonialists believed that their culture was superior in terms of religion, governance, education, family life, media and economy. My parents were soaked into this narrative, so they told me to go and learn the white man’s ways. That was how I joined the formal educational system.
My solid pre-school experiences served me well when I got to the white man’s school. In school, I surpassed my contemporaries who were even older and stronger than me. Then you could see a 20-year-old in primary school. In the beginning, our educational system was very good. It produced some of the best scholars in the world till today, and can be partly responsible for the continued positive attitude most Nigerians in developed countries of the world still have for themselves and offspring.
Therefore, these early life experiences combined with my inherent nature to spur me forward to greater and positive achievements in life.
Where did you start life?
That was Ode-Irele in the current Ondo State, then part of the Western Region, in 1938. I went to school in Siluko town in the present Edo State, imbibed Edo culture and spoke Benin language in addition to my Yoruba heritage. I can still speak and write in Benin language just as Yoruba.
Which state are you from?
As I already indicated, I am from Ondo State which shares borders with Edo State. Some of our people still have farms in Edo State. My father’s plantations are still there till today, but they were sold by some of my siblings before they died. Only one of my elder half-sisters and I are currently alive and kicking.
You did travel abroad after a while. Was it that easy for young people to travel abroad then?
At that time, there were no visa problems for us as Commonwealth citizens. Once you had the money, you could travel to virtually anywhere in the world. But even at that, not many people were travelling out of Nigeria like they are doing now.
Was it that people were not interested in traveling?
Before and immediately after Nigeria’s political independence, traveling was not easy because of financial constraints and also due to the awe with which we held the white people at that time. Although people nursed the ambition to go there, it was an ambition based on the search for the Golden Fleece, which was education. Just like my friends and I, we went there and within two years I was through with my ordinary and advanced level pre-university education.
Were you pressured to travel abroad by your parents or it was your initiative?
My parents wanted the best for me, and they considered that I could actually get that through embracing the white man’s culture and formal education, but they didn’t have the necessary funds. It was one of my elder brothers who assisted me with the air fare. I arrived England with three pounds sterling. We were using pound sterling then. When I got to the UK, my friends from Nigeria assisted me to settle down in the hostel with them, and within a week when I joined some fellow Yoruba compatriots, I started working and going to classes in the evening. I cleared my exams, entered University of London and I was awarded a scholarship by London Council. I did my first degree and master’s degree in England. Later, I went for my PhD in the USA.
What did you study?
I am a sociologist by training and learning, which gave me a broad-based academic exposure in the social sciences, including Economics, History, Philosophy and Comparative Education. My master’s degree was in Education and Sociology, and the PhD was in Economics, Philosophy and Education.
Did you return to Nigeria immediately you finished school?
I wanted to return, but I got married to a Sierra Leonean, who was the only daughter of her parents. They advised me to go with them to Sierra Leone to know their background and country, and I followed them. I worked at their College of Education. After about four years, some Nigerian professors who were our external examiners saw me and took me to the University of Ife. When I got to Ife in 1972, the university was bustling with intellectualism. But before long, the federal government took it over and everything became toxic. When I noticed that the university was nose-diving, I had to take the agonising decision to voluntarily leave. I actually wanted to be a professional teacher all my life until retirement. But when I noticed that the system was no longer what it was during the first few years I joined, I left to start general business consulting.
You turned 80 recently. How did you celebrate it?
Everybody kept saying being 80 is a landmark. It was actually my wife and children who insisted on a dinner party. They did everything without me being part of the arrangement. So we eventually had a cozy dinner party, but not an elaborate type that could sap decency. Then and now, I am very comfortable with myself.
How do you feel at 80?
I can say that my upbringing has made me a disciplined person. I believe in the significance of cause and effect. I am not easily distracted. I could be jovial, an extrovert at one point, and at another time, I could be an introvert. It depends on what the circumstances present.
How active are you at 80?
I take my health very seriously. I select what I eat and what I drink. Whatever I eat or take, I put the volume and quantity into consideration. I also consider where to take it and when to take it.
What do you do to keep fit?
In recent times, I do not do sufficient physical exercise like I used to do. In my former house, I had a swimming pool where I used to swim regularly. Now I intend to join some clubs soon and continue to keep fit. I walk some reasonable distances with my wife because I subscribe to the view that a healthy mind can only live in a healthy body.
If you live a positive life, you are likely to overcome some of the many and major ailments in our society. Unnecessary ailments usually derive their origins from our undisciplined lifestyles. So, it is always necessary to navigate through so many fake products in the market to find the authentic ones. We knew long ago that about 80 per cent of the drugs we find in the market are essentially fake. So you can see that it is more difficult to live in Africa than other continents of the world.
Do you smoke or indulge in drinking?
I did smoke till I was about 35. Let me tell you, I did everything any man would do, but I stopped them at will. I could drink anything or smoke anything except marijuana and cocaine. That was because I had some friends and acquaintances who misbehaved and got themselves into serious but unnecessary troubles. But I live a full life and enjoy myself in a disciplined manner.
Let us go back to the period you were abroad, how was life then?
I was in England for my first and second degrees, but I later did my doctoral degree in America. During that structuring phase of my life, I had as much fun as I can remember. But my upward movement was never a tea party. Nevertheless, the pains I endured produced some enduring gains.
At what point did marriage come in?
I was rounding off with my first degree when I met my life’s partner in school. She was also studying sociology. It was love at first sight, though I was two years ahead of her at school. But as soon as she finished at school, we got married. I worked for a year in London before we left for her country, Sierra Leone. From there we came to Nigeria and later to America before coming back to Nigeria.
You are married to a foreigner. Did you have issues with your parents over that decision?
Actually, my contemporaries who were in England at the time had to mostly marry people from other places. That was because those of us that were there then were few. There weren’t many Nigerian girls. Those who were there were from wealthy families, relatively speaking, and they were in institutions outside London. It was not easy to come across them. Quite a lot of us had to ‘import’ their partners from Nigeria to the United Kingdom. Most of us were in London, which continues to host most of Nigerian immigrants till today. Our ages were going up too. A lot of us got married to West Indians. Some got married to Europeans and some to Ghanaians. I got married to a delightful and delectable Sierra Leonean.
How has your marriage been?
It has been very good. We worked at it despite my turbulent life of social activism. Our four children were well brought up and they are doing very well. I have a granddaughter who is a lawyer and 24 years old, and my eldest grandson is 26 years old.
Don’t you feel lonely now that the children are all out of the home?
Yes, but we’ve just spent two years in this particular house. We used to live in a 13-room house with a swimming pool in Opebi here in Lagos. We planned very well. I didn’t work for government, so I was not expecting any pension. It has worked out the way we planned it. This is supposed to be our retirement home. It is not as big as what we used to have. It has just five bedrooms, which means that when all the children and grandchildren come home like some of them did during my recent birthday celebration, they have to lodge in hotels. But this place is good for us. We are contented. We never dreamt of things we couldn’t achieve. We were not greedy or over-ambitious. We were clear minded as to what we wanted to do and what we could do.
You are an Ikale man from Ondo State who has imbibed Edo, English and American cultures and Sierra Leonean culture to some extent. How would you describe yourself in this circumstance?
For me, it has been experiences of life and living. I gain a lot from travels, interacting with people and nature such as hills, mountains, rivers and even the fauna. In all of these, it is me and the world I could never make alone. Even in war situations, we learn. If you are smart, you can take a good thing out of war. You have to define yourself in relation to your world. That is why I chose to be an educator and an educationist. I want to help people to come to terms with the joy of success and the sorrow of failure. You always have to choose between various opportunities. Refusing to choose is also accepting to choose. We are all condemned to choose. So we have to choose well because our choices are guided by good and evil. We must choose to do good for there lies honour.
I can see the joy of being an educationist in you. Do you miss lecturing at the university?
Yes, very much. I taught in America for a while. I taught in England, Sierra Leone and here in Nigeria. Barring the obstacles of language, I can teach anywhere in the world. I have a broad-based education. I have chosen to be in Nigeria to contribute with others to make better citizens. At a point, I decided to go fully into social activism with all the hazard of deprivations, conflict with friends and foes. We are still in the trenches. While in NADECO, we chased the military out. But another set of them is wearing agbada and babanriga now and oppressing the unfortunate citizens of the country. However, we will chase them out no matter what it may take again. Truth and justice can never be totally defeated.
Is your wife still working?
My wife did education too, but went into banking where she rose to become a Managing Director before she retired. It was on the eve of her retirement that Gen. Abacha wanted to take her hostage to replace me during the NADECO period. But men and women of goodwill in her (Sierra-Leonean) embassy here rose up against it. They took her through the NADECO route to join me in England. But Abacha’s men went for my daughter in her matrimonial home. She is married to an Air Force officer. They took her away. Her daughter was four years old and her son was six years old at the time. They took her to a shanty area in Apapa known as the Directorate of Military Intelligence, with my mother in-law who was staying with us. They were detained for almost six months. They also took my nephew who was the youngest son of my sister. He was detained for more than three years in Apapa. He was not allowed to see sunshine for all that period. When he came out of detention, his body was white. He was taken hostage because of me.
Have you forgiven General Abacha for these?
I don’t quarrel with dead people. It is the legacy of our past leaders that we are living with now. I pity him though. I do not hate anyone. It is the devilish works of their hands that I hate. Unfortunately, even Abacha was a victim too. He was a victim like the others. They didn’t know and understand the circumstances surrounding their actions. It is like when the coup happened in Nigeria; the first coup of 1966. Kwame Nkrumah, the then President of Ghana, said that Balewa and his cohorts in Nigeria died of circumstances that they did not know and understand.
I don’t rejoice in the misfortune of my fellow human beings. When I consider the circumstances that could have been prevented, I really pity them. Ignorance is a bad disease. There can never be any gain without pain. Whatever you think you have gained without pain could even kill you faster.
