Do you still feel safe here in the USA? The Turkish government demands your extradition of Barack Obama.
The USA is a democratic state of law. Nobody can be convicted without any statutory regulations and there is no space for despotism here. There is no legal basis for the Turkish president’s extradition request. In this way international law is being violated and Turkey’s reputation in the world is being damaged.
Once you have been a supporter of RecepTayyip Erdogan’s conservative-Islamic AKP. What has changed?
When the AKP had been founded they promised democracy, human rights, the EU-membership, an end of corruption and stigmatization of dissidents, and economic upturn. In the first years all these promises were kept. That’s why participants of our movement supported them. However, after the AKP had come into power for the third time in 2011, they made a radical U-turn. Today we recognize political pressure on the media, sprawling authorisations for the intelligence agency MIT, profiling of citizens, contempt of judicial decisions, and mistreatment of protesters. Currently the government is trying to characterise me as public enemy in order to hide their corruptions and to form an authoritarian system. However we have got the saying: A liar’s candle only burns until sunset.
Together with Erdogan you have forced back the influence of the army on the Turkish politics. Is this all forgotten?
In the past Turkey has experienced four different military coups. Governments have been brought down, ten thousands of people have been interrogated and arrested, and many of them got tortured. In Turkey terrible things have happened which are not imaginable in the EU (which we want to join). In a 2010 referendum 58% of the Turkish population voted for a change in the law. This constitutional change allowed bringing officers who had attempted a military coup to a civil court. If the AKP hadn’t politicized the referendum so much, maybe 70% would have approved it. For the first time in my life I had voiced a recommendation back then. I had said, even the dead should raise and take part in this referendum. After the country had been freed from the repression by the military, the AKP consolidated all powers for the executive branch. They neutralised supervisory authorities and tried to eliminate the independence of judiciary. Earlier we had rejected the repression of the military. Today, in the same way, we reject the repression of a party. That’s why we are slandered as traitors.
Where is Turkey heading for?
Currently, the Turkish Republic conveys the impression that it is no longer a social, secular and constitutional democracy. It has rather become a one-party state and even a one-man state. The separation of powers has been suppressed except for the constitutional court which is still putting up resistance. Today, Turkey is experiencing a national polarisation and is losing its international reputation. Turkey is getting lonelier. My country’s situation makes me sad.
Erdogan claims he wanted to bring up a religious generation. Don’t you want the same?
It is not the task of a government to raise a religious generation. Such a policy gives rise to pressure on dissidents. Freedom of faith is part of the fundamental human rights. The state has to assure all individuals of the right to learn and to teach their beliefs – no matter which religion it is. In twelve years of government people have expected Erdogan to ensure these rights legally, making no discrimination among religious minorities. It’s open to dispute to which extend these goals have been achieved. Yet, a devout person should observe the law. With this in mind I wish a religious generation that has both deep spirituality and respects the rights and freedoms of all human beings. But if you mean a generation which has depth of understanding of its own religion, which discriminates and easily spreads hatred, then I say: No. And we don’t call such a generation religious in the first place.
Recently you have taken a stand against the Islamic State in five major US newspapers. How dangerous is IS?
In the history of Islam radical groups have repeatedly come up. In fact, these groups suppressed other peoples, murdered humans and hereby betrayed their religion. A few years ago there was Al-Qaida. Now there is IS; that’s all we needed! IS defiles the image of Islam. This is nothing but barbarism. Whoever was prejudiced against Islam feels vindicated now. This situation won’t let you sleep. Unfortunately, scholars in the Islamic World did not take an unequivocal stand in this matter, neither in Mecca and Medina, nor in Egypt and Turkey.
Had you wished more protests on the streets?
Sadly I haven’t seen any large demonstrations. Furthermore it is alleged that the IS is being supported from other countries with weaponry and logistics. If these claims are true, world peace and the future of Islam are in danger.
Are IS fighters Muslims?
They are victims of a mass psychosis. In Europe this phenomenon is well known. People had followed movements which later were responsible for massacres. The IS members are ignorant people who don’t know their own religion in the least. They make up a holy war. It is a system of madness.
How can young Europeans be protected from this madness?
Endangered youngsters should be better observed, although this might contradict the ideals of freedom in the Western world. One should enlighten them, provide workshops and conferences. In addition, young foreigners’ home countries should not escape their responsibilities.
What do you recommend to the politicians of the Turkish government in this subject?
I cannot recommend them anything. They will not listen to me. They have brilliant minds and know everything.
How do you like Erdogan’s palace?
Every state needs buildings that serve its needs. However, instead of erecting a palace with 1000 rooms, one could have renewed the existing buildings. A court had even decided to stop the new construction. The Prime Minister ignored it. Such a behavior shakes the citizens’ respect for the justice. In the Ottoman Empire the most splendid palaces were built during the time of their decadence. Today many heads of powerful states work in modest buildings. That’s why this magnificent building did harm to Turkey’s reputation. 60% of the Turks regard it as wastefulness. From a religious perspective this is waste, and waste is a sin.
Erdogan accuses your movement of infiltrating justice and police.
A citizen does not infiltrate the institutions of his own country, but he can take his rightful place in them. Everybody who provides the necessary qualifications can be a civil servant. Is it possible that they feel threatened because many people did not bow to the power? The current political system does not only stigmatise people who sincerely support our movement, but almost everybody who doesn’t stay close to their power and who doesn’t cooperate. They see us as harmful elements in the state. Such a thing is called witch-hunting.
Thousands of civil servants have been moved and dismissed. How many of them were Hizmet-members?
I don’t even know a tenth of the people who feel connected to this movement. After a certain time one will recognise that many of the concerned prosecutors, police officers and teachers have nothing to do with us. On the one hand, they try to present us as a big danger by stigmatizing so many people. On the other hand they want to get rid of everybody who doesn’t pledge complete allegiance to them. Most recently a vice-chairman of the AKP even admitted this strategy.
The officials had collected corruption allegations against sons of ministers and pro-government businessmen. What do you think about these allegations?
Despite concrete evidence that was publicised, the corruption proceedings have been closed. Because of that to this day, nobody knows what really has happened. In the West, governments would have resigned, if there were such charges. Ankara went so far to portray the investigations as an international conspiracy – again, a typical strategy in authoritarian regimes.
Is your movement weakened?
Indeed, it is hard to deny the effect of the propaganda by the state-controlled media. People who send their children to our schools and support us with donations are being threatened. But some day this propaganda,which relies on a web of lies,will eventually turn against their producers.
The government plans to close down all your schools in Turkey.
Our schools won high praise and several awards. If Turkey is a state of law, we expect that nothing bad will happen to them. Otherwise Turkey will lose.
Recently Gülen-Schools have been closed down in Central Asia. Is the Turkish government’s influence responsible for that?
The Turkish government tries to find different arguments against us in each country. In the republics of the former Soviet Union they say we were American spies. In the USA they call us religious fundamentalists and in Islamic countries they allege we were alluring their children from the religion. In fact, that is a very pragmatic strategy. Yet, in this way Turkey is breaking down bridges of friendship and is harming its international relations. Hereby the Turkish paranoia is being transported abroad.
A former US ambassador once described you as second most powerful man in Turkey. How do you see yourself?
I seek refuge in God from any such claim! Everybody who slightly knows me can confirm that I had never wanted to be famous. I have never tried to obtain spiritual or material benefits. My life of 76 years is a witness to this. If the successes of this movement deserve any praise, it is due to the many volunteers.
Will this movement exist without Fethullah Gülen?
People supported us who didn’t even share one percent of our worldview. But we shared universal values. In Africa people who I had never met, have co-financed schools and hospitals. They were rich people and you hadn’t expected their support. Every night when I go to bed I think for myself, maybe I won’t wake up again. But I am not worried in the least about the future of this movement.
Do you think about returning to Turkey?
I miss my country very much. I am an emotional person. I have got family and friends. And I did not come to this world out of nowhere. I was born to a family. Recently my brother passed away and I wasn’t able to attend his funeral. This was also the case with other relatives. I have spent 60 years of my life in Turkey. I easily attach to places and even to objects. The village I was born in, the graves of my father and my grandparents, the neighborhood in Izmir where I have lived for years, the books in my library there… All these are in my mind’s eye and I can’t hold back my tears. If I returned to Turkey today, some people working in the highest departments of the state would abuse this for their dark purposes.
Can you imagine reconciliation with Erdogan?
We didn’t start this fight. That’s why they have to make the first move for reconciliation. If some day Erdogan confesses to all his bald lies and slander he disseminated in rallies and in media, I will be ready to make my peace with him.
Is there anything which makes you happy nowadays despite all difficulties?
I have never been happy for a long time. After each military coup I was being persecuted. But what I experience today is even worse. Still, the bright side is that coal and diamonds get separated (Turkish saying). The world is recognizing the meaning of this movement.
Many in America were amused about Erdogan’s recent statement that Muslims had discovered America before Christopher Columbus. What do you think about that?
Scientists of different disciplines should decide what was discovered by whom first. Some people might say: “Who is Einstein anyway? And who is this Edison? We Muslims knew all this already in the fifth century, even the nuclear fusion.” It is absurd to say that these discoveries were only made by Muslims.
