Cardinal Anthony Olubunmi Okogie, Archbishop Emeritus of Lagos clocked 80 on 16 June. The former President, Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN) and ex- President of the Bishops’ Conference of Nigeria reminisced with Adetutu Audu on his journey to priesthood, retirement and other issues.
AT this period when life span in the country is 46, what does being 80 mean to you?
I am still myself, very youthful and ready to go all over again. I value life more than before. Hard work keeps me going. My grandfather would say ise lo n pa eniyan,ise ki pa eniyan. Work does not kill, but poverty kills. I now treasure life; things I have not been seeing before, I now see. Life means looking towards the ultimate end. When you leave this world, where are you going and how you are going to account for all your deeds?
Are you fulfilled?
When you talk about fulfilment, can there be anyone that is fulfilled in life? Look at the people looting money, are they fulfilled? People who claimed to be having many children and many wives; are they fulfilled? Fulfilment in life is not the ultimate. If you really want to be fulfilled, put God before you. This man that sent me here without asking me why might want me back one day; what account are you going to give? That is what I am doing now and I now understand life more.
What was growing up like for you as a child?
I grew up like every other child. I was both timid and stubborn because of the area I grew up in, Lafiaji. You have to be inbetween, not too timid and not too bold, if you want to live longer in life.
How are you coping with retirement?
My retirement is spent mostly on collection. And then people come in and I counsel them; we try to do what we can to assist the Archbishop too.
Did you really set out to be a priest, considering the environment you grew up in?
From the beginning, I am from a catholic background. We are staunch Catholics, both maternally and paternally, so there was no room for rascality. When you go back in, you have to put on your thinking cap. My father, every 7am says the rosary, we all went to church and this idea of God was imbibed in us. Most importantly, my mum would always say, if you don’t fear any other thing, you must fear God because He is looking at you. Then I spent some of my time in the mission and became an altar server; and gradually I started admiring the priest. In those days, mass was always in Latin and you had to memorize the Liturgy. They also taught us how to behave. When you are in the church, you focus on the pulpit.
In 1951, I went to St. Gregory’s College up to 1953. By then I was bold enough to face my father, so I said to him, I am not going back to the school, I want to be a priest. He looked at me and asked if I was stupid. He didn’t like it; he had wanted me to be an Engineer. It was my mother who supported me and gradually my father got used to it.
In 1963, we went to Rome to do theology and came back as Reverend Deacon. And because I had only one more step then, I asked my parish priest, ‘Father, can I be a priest?’ In those days, there were seven steps; four minor others and three major others. So I had finished the sixth and last one is the priesthood. So I asked my mentor,’can I be a priest’. He replied that any fool can be a priest, just as any fool can marry.
I said I don’t understand and he said ‘what you should have asked me is can I be a good priest? Can I be a good husband? If that good is not there then you are not serious.’ So I asked what it takes to be a good priest. Three things, he said. He said to beware of money, women and drink. The same thing if you want to be a good husband. I said I had no money. He looked at me and smiled. Then he replied that as a priest, you will have plenty of money but none of it is yours. He said look at the people in the bank, they are surrounded with money; is it theirs? When they begin to pilfer, when the auditor comes, they will find out. Same thing fora priest. For women, three quarters of your life you will be seeing them. 90 percent will be coming to you for one issue or the other; if you are seeing 10 people in a day, seven of them will be women. I experienced it. If you let yourself too loose, you are finished. Then what about drink? He said, if you are stupid enough, your friends will give you drink and you’d get drunk.
In your entire journey as a priest, how have you been able to stay off these three things? Have you ever been tempted?
One thing you have to know is that no one is perfect. Those three things I mentioned were just to guide. If you want to be a good priest, you have to take them serious. How can you say you are a good priest and you’re pilfering? Your conscience will tell you you’re out of the game.
How do you manage women?
They come in. You have to practice what we call custody of the eyes. You control your eyes. It is not easy. When we studied psychology, all these things you were asking came in. If you want to be perfect like the scripture said, then go sell all you have, take all the proceeds and give to the poor, then follow Christ empty-handed. If you want to be a good son of your father, you won’t wait for your father to say I need money. Can you do everything to satisfy your father? The devil is not asleep; he is watching and waiting to catch us off-guard, you just try to do your best.
Priests are seen as next to God; what are the qualities of a good priest?
Priests are human and they are taken from among men. When you enter the seminary, they panel-beat you properly. The very first thing you notice is obedience. When you go in as an ordinary student, you hear the bell; you asked what it is for and you join them in what they are doing. Nobody forces you. And gradually you are training yourself. No one is holy except God. If you notice the writing of Paul, he called all Christians saints. Be holy as your God is holy. Even Mother Theresa will not tell you she is holy but you have to behave as gentlemen and ladies.
During your days at the seminary, did you reach a point where you felt the panel beating was too much and wanted to quit?
I did and to the extent that I packed my things. It was my maternal grandfather that saved the situation. He used to stay in the mission. I don’t know who told him but he came to meet with me and told me that he must not hear such again. You see God loves us, if He is giving you a vocation or calling and you are trying to run away, he has a way of bringing you back. And if you refuse, He has a way of punishing you.
Has it ever crossed your mind that it is not a bad idea to be married?
Since I left St. Gregory’s College,no. That is the emptiness of life. If you have N100m now, I give you three months to check and you begin to wonder what you did with it. I tell you there is nothing in life.
One of the criteria for priesthood is celibacy. Have you been tempted all your active years?
You have to control your passion, it is not easy. You are eating plenty of food; but there will be a time your body will react as if saying I can’t take it anymore. At that point, if you add to it you’re looking for trouble for the body. Same thing with sex. When I was young, I had a girlfriend – not the type you do now. In our days, you can’t even hold your girlfriend’s hands. That is why God allows us to grow. Everyday, you learn new things. No one is infallible but you must discipline yourself. I see life in a different way. Are you satisfied with your spouse? After marriage, you will see many others who like you and whom you like, but the watchword is sacrifice, self-control. After all, what does this one have that your husband or wife cannot give you? A man that has already told himself this is the kind of life I want to live should exercise self-control, and if he is cheating, ah ah! If you find your husband/wife cheating on you, God forbid, even if it is temptation that leads him/her to it, will you kill him/her? We always look at things from one side. Just as you are finding it difficult to stay 100 per cent faithful to your spouse, so it is with the priest. That is what makes the job interesting. That is where the sacrifice is.
We are all human beings. The mere fact that some people are stealing does not make you to go and steal. That is what I am saying. You always try to follow the good ones and not the bad ones. You just have to control yourself. Apostle Paul himself said it. Till you die, there will always be the sexual urge and it will worry you. The best part of anyone is when you face any temptation and you are able to overcome it, not when you face temptation and you fall into it. It is when you face temptation and you overcome that is the true test of a Christian.
Don’t you think the oath of celibacy is too harsh? Some say it is not biblical?
Some are called to that line. Others are not, and the Church cannot change that. It is not biblical because it is not written there but don’t forget that Jesus Christ said that some are born eunuchs and some made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of God. What does that tell you? It is not written that you must marry. After all, Peter got married, but the moment he knew Christ, he had no time for the woman again. It is sacrifice.
What would you consider the low and high points of your career?
Probably my low point was when I was still trying to make ends meet in the priesthood, still doubting if I was in the right place or not until finally I found my feet and said ‘yes, this is indeed the right place for me’. The climax as you want to know, maybe again I don’t know. Those who judge know what I am doing and because in our own ministry, they follow you as you rise from the cradle to the cross, they try to assess you, to know how fine you are doing, how you preach and your accessibility to people; these are the kind of things they do.
The highest point is being a cardinal. I don’t know how I became a cardinal, but like I said, those who see you know you better than yourself, they can assess you. Let’s say I give myself one million per cent but they say sorry you are not even worth 10 per cent and then you open your eyes and say ‘ah, what of all these things I have been doing?’ So, all priests are assessed unknown to them and that is how the church moves. So, if they are not satisfied with what you are doing, they will tell you through your bishop that you have to buckle up. So, I think that is what I can consider my highest point.
What would you say is the joy of priesthood for you?
When you meet people, they see you as a father; somebody that can be trusted. When people asked you to pray for them, as a good priest, you also tell them to pray for you too because we are all sinners. Then the liturgy, you are there talking to God. It is like a child who has no other person to go to except the mother.
You were once president of Christian Association of Nigeria and a critic of the government of the day. Were you not afraid something bad could have happened to you?
I am not afraid. I have one good advantage. Apart from having courage as one of my motto, I am naturally bold. I took that from my late father. Secondly, during the war, I was told to go to the war front as a chaplain; so when you talk about fear, I had it, not because of the war but where I was going to, third marine commando, under the late Benjamin Adekunle aka Black scorpion, I met this gentleman who greeted me and I introduced myself and my mission . I told him I needed a car to do the job well; he told me to go to the street and tell the driver of any car I like to come out. I said that is stealing, and he shouted ‘What! This is war!’But I said I won’t do it. The alternative was to write an official letter to the late Benjamin Adekunle. I asked the other Protestant Reverend there and he said he did it, that what the military police told him was that when Jesus Christ came he had no vehicle but priests of nowadays want to drive cars. I told him he is right but Jesus Christ rode on an ass, which was the best means of transportation in those days. So he said ‘take this man out of this place. Now you will be staying near my house, there is a jeep there.’ I said I don’t know how to drive. He said everything will be sorted out. So I met most of the officers then at the war front. There was nothing that they did that I didn’t do except to shoot and kill people.
Are you satisfied the way PMB is running this administration? How would you rate his performance in the last one year?
Very low. If you listen to his inaugural speech and match it with the blueprint of the APC, you will see a wide departure. If you are too far away from home and you don’t check yourself, you will never get back home. It is okay tackling corruption; what about other things.? It is okay tackling economy; how do we revive the economy?. A lot of things have gone wrong. But he should go back and match his speech with the blue print of his party. My first article, ‘Enough is enough’ is just calling him to order. I wrote another one, ‘We are watching.’ If care is not taken, we will wake up one day and find out that Nigeria has been islamised.
The CAN you nurtured is presently enmeshed in controversies. What do you think is the problem and way forward?
Everybody wants money; we now have the body of greedy people under the name of CAN. What you now hear is the Catholics have been there, Methodist has been there, so it is our turn. They must go back to the constitution, except if they have altered a few things there, and face the work God gave them if they are really pastors.
What do you think is the solution to the current agitation by Niger Delta Avengers, Fulani herdsmen and other problems the country is facing?
Dialogue. The government should go and study the origin of all these, whatever that has beginning must have an end. It is not all about guns; they are passing the grazing reserve law; it can’t work. Is it their land? Can you do that in the North? It is true we all are Nigerians but we are not living in unity. Everybody is looking for problem because our man is there; the president is not behaving like a father of a nation; he must be able to stick out his neck and not be afraid to say the truth.
Lastly, do priests actually retire?
Well, no because they preach forever according to the order of Melchizedek, if you want it in the broad sense. But in the strict sense, yes; because there is a church law that says once you are 75, you inform the Pope on the section I referred to that is your retiring age in the physical world. But you are not; you still work, still say your mass and they can call you for anything. But officially they regard you as retired.
