On the eve of his 80th birthday, Nobel Laureate, Professor Wole Soyinka, spoke to Aljazeera on a wide range of issues. Excerpts:
AJ: Wole Soyinka, thank you very much for talking to us… Thak you for welcoming us to your very lovely home.
WS: You’re welcome
AJ: the abduction of more than 200 school girls in the north. Are you glad that the world is finally paying attention to a conflict that has been widely viewed as an exclusive Nigerian problem for a long time? Or are you saddened perhaps at the negative light it shed on Nigeria and on its leadership in particular?
Ws: Well, glad would be the wrong word. I’ve said this the other time.The global community is coming to an awareness that certain problems are not specific to certain areas but are actually global both in actuality and in what it portends. And I have stressed the fat that our soldiers have served in so many places outside the world. And this kind of affliction is of the kind that requires both political and social understanding but also requires much as we don’t like the word, requires a state of war – a mind that is in a state of war. Other people are more experienced in certain aspects.
It is somewhat surprising that Nigeria which has as you sayyourself one of the most reputed of the African continent with successful peace-keeping missions in countries like Liberia and Sierra Leone and so on hasn’t been able to maintain security within its own border. How do you explain all that?
Well, in this particular case, it is very poor leadership – it’s overconcentration on the politics of the situation, you know – how to retain power. It has neglected what it is actually elected to do. And so the security situation which is quite obvious in its possibilities, in its developments to so many people, myself included, and voices have been crying out that we are in a serious security situation. But this was neglected and so it fested. And now, it is nearly very out of control.
What do you make of the reaction of the abduction of the girls? It seems to have captured the world’s imagination with Hollywood getting involved, Mitchell Obama getting involved. Do you wonder sometimes what the world sees, saw in that particular event?
The world didn’t get to see it the way I saw it without some very serious burden, both high level, the movement on and so forth. But also in true direct approaches. Some of the ambassadors, some of the diplomatic representatives were here to whom we were able to say, ‘listen, don’t isolate Nigeria over this issue. And fortunately, since they are intelligent people and they are on the ground, they knew exactly what we were talking about. They knew that there is a history behind it which guaranteed that this would escalate in dimension.
When I talk about capturing the imagination of the world, it almost seems like it’s a story that fitscertain expectation of what should happen in a country like Nigeria, like what should happen in Africa?
What should happen. Before, it is worth paying attention to it. In other words, the negative aspect. Well, it’s a rebuke both against Nigeria and the world community. The sort of subconscious need to point a negative finger at Nigeria assists. And then you convert it to something positive which is concern.
Some outside of Nigeria may see this as interesting time because Nigeria has become Africa’s leading economic power. There is oil, there is gas and so, the timing is certainly interesting.
It is rather like the negative icing on a rotten cake. So, we should understand that there are people who love bad news and all that. At the same time, we have to recognise there are many people that are generally appalled and are concerned. Andthen,the group which sees this as part of a global menace which has got to be stopped before it expands to other places.
How do you stop it Professor Soyinka?
I see it both as the military solution sooner or later. But at the same time, anytime it requires, even if it a shock in the short term, it requires very subtle diplomatic deployment of intellectual resources.
But, when you haven’t resolved the entrenched poverty, the issues that are affecting northern Nigeria, does it really come to you as a surprise that we are seeing a group like boko haram in some parts of Nigeria that are not being applauded but certainly people understand a certain resentment it seems towards the government in the north because they feel neglected and marginalised.
Well, let’s divide Boko Haram into segments. Those who unleashed Boko Haram on the nation are not poverty stricken. They are politicians, very well-to-do but wants to do better, ‘in their own way’, desperate for power, intelligent enough or perceptive enough to recognise that the cocktail of politics and religion fundamentalism can only yield them dividends. They think they have nothing to lose. But the foot soldiers have been indoctrinated for years from childhood. And they believe, they been told for instance that your religion is in danger, ‘go and kill.’
And Islam is endangered
Their religion is not endangered. Islam is not endangered. It is the perverse followers, those who debase religion itself who are being used and who use others and proclaim that they are fighting for Islam. So, we have a situation where even those who unleashed this menace on the nation are now endangered because the foot soldiers in many cases have become ‘radicalised’ and they have looked at their mentors and said, ‘wait a minute, you’re not practicing true Islam. And so the perpetrators, the real organisers of boko haram are looking towards the government for support. So, the bottom line really is that we have a motivating aspect of this insurrection which cuts across class, position, status, wealth or poverty. Take a look at other nations of the world. Nigeria is not unique. Look at Algeria and this is part of the poverty of thought and knowledge of some other leaders. They cannot look outside and see what happens elsewhere. If you look at Algeria, if you look even at parts of Afghanistan, and so on, you’ll find out that religion on its own is a powerful motivating factor without complacency, government neglect.
I’ll come back to the issue of religion in just a moment professor Soyinka. But just on that point, one gets the feeling and I might be wrong. One gets the feeling that even among Nigeria, the insurgency in the northern region was for a long time something that could be effectively contained and had little impact on the oil-rich south. It almost seemed as if Nigerians didn’t want to be confronted with the divisions and the fragmentation that exist within Nigerian society?
Yes, I’ve remarked this often that the nation in the main is still not in denial. Those regions which are pretty well-to-do in resources and are not immediately affected by this insurgency – they believe it is something that can just be contained. That it is something remote. We have to keep reminding that ‘listen, look at the histories of the world. Boko Haram if not contained and eradicated will be found in the heart of Lagos before you now it. And we’ve been saying that for years. And indeed, it’s been established that there are cells which exist in the southern parts. So, I’ve urged and continued to urge that we better regard this as a national issue.
You’ve strongly criticised the Nigerian military in the past. You’ve criticised people like Sani Abacha. Some Nigerians that I’ve talked to today, you’ll be surprised to hear say they long for the days of military dictatorship because at least then, there was security. What do you make of that?
Nigeria is desperate. Nigerians are desperate. And it is not unusual to find people who long for not so much the good old days but the more capable, more efficient period of military governance. But a larger number recognise the fact that the military has shut its bolt and that they proved every bit as corrupt if not even more corrupt than civilians have been in the past and in the present. So, it’s a mixture
So, when you were saying there were different administrations, whether civilian or military, what would you say is the most critical problem of government in Nigeria?
Today, it is security. There are other issues of course, like public services, electricity, potable water for many areas still, in spite of the fact that they are sinking boreholes all over the place. And in fact, a small proportion of the people have access to potable water. And there is the mammoth problem of institutionalised corruption all the way down from the top to the bottom. Now, that is the reason why many people remember one or two military, should we say president or leaders who had no time at all for corruption. Then, that becomes the sole issue but it is not the sole issue.
Let’s talk a bit about religion because you started talking about … you’ve written that there is an epidemic of religion in Nigeria and in the world and you say that you’ll be happy if religion were taken away altogether. So, do you think the world would be a better place without religion?
My fear is that the devil would always find work for idle hands. If you take away religion, something even more nasty would take its place. So, I speak both subjectively and objectively that I’m tired historically of the amount of havoc religion has done to the world and is still doing to the world.
You’re a religious man yourself. I mean, your parents were Christians and I can see you were brought up as a Christian
I’ve studied religion. I cannot say I am a religious person, I think I’m a deeply spiritual person. But organised religion in my view is more of a curse than a blessing. I believe that religion should be very very personal. State should not interfere. I don’t understand for instance, why Nigerian government waste so much money in sponsoring people on pilgrimage to Mecca or Jerusalem. They call themselves Jerusalem Pilgrim today. And the amount of energy and resources actually spent on religion is staggering. Let people manage their own religion.
It’s interesting to say that because an expert on religion in the US was saying that the paralysis of the Nigerian government and military in dealing with boko haram comes off out of its over-relying on religion if you will. That Nigerian government and the society is one that is to steeped in religion sometimes and this
That is part of the reason for lack of development because people go and suck this sweet, this panacea in churches and forget their woes, the problems for several days and then, they go back again. They are given assurances of better place, all the suffering would be resolved either here soon, or on the other side. And some take this to the extreme that they believe that even the more they kill other religionists or those who don’t practice their own religion strictly the way they want to see it, that when they kill them, when they torture them, the gates of paradise opens wide. Can you imagine any kind of article of faith embody that. But, I’m afraid this what many of these Boko Haramites – what they believes in. and even, the religious extremists from other religions like Christianity are not much better in terms of belief but they are not so violent.
You had political ambitions at one point of your life, professor Soyinka. You founded a political party in 2010 called the Democratic Front for Peoples Federation. Why did you throw in the towel?
I didn’t start a party for myself. I started a party for youths who were complaining that the old ….were not giving them space. It was strictly for them. And the reason why I sort of stepped aside, if I use the notorious quote of one of our military dictators was when I found that many joined the party because they thought I was running for president. Now, I said to myself, ‘you must be out of my mind. Would I start a party if I had some ambition? No, I would go join another party, let them do all the hard work and then I would run.
Even so, you seem to have evaded seduction by the reigning political party or the power houses. Why is that? Why are you so outspoken when it comes to politics but yet, don’t get directly involved?
Well, I have atemperament which is not suitable to a level of compromises which politics demand. Politics, you know, is a full time occupation and you have to study it, you have to be an apprentice, that means you have to learn everything good and bad and practice many things, both good and bad. And I’m a little bit inflexible, you know about my beliefs.
Well, getting involved in politics got you into a lot of trouble in the past. You book, ‘The man died’ dealt with your period in jail during the 1967/1970 war that is Biafra war. Some of you might not know Biafra, the name assumed by the seceding southern Nigeria. The war saw the massacre of mostly Christian Ibos who lived in the predominantly northern part of Nigeria. You got involved in this Biafra issue which remains a sensitive issue in Nigeria and went on from being seen as a mediator in the Biafra crisis to a trouble-maker. Tell us about that time.
Well, I didn’t know that I am trouble-maker. No.
Some people did see you as a trouble maker
(Chuckles) I wish life was as simple as that. Let’s put it this way, I grew up in certain circumstances – very conscious politically, nationalism, etcetra. In this Abeokuta where we are seated, my mother was involved in the politics, my aunty, Mrs. RansomeKuti was a leader
Your cousin was FelaKuti
Yes, Fela was my cousin. Yes, that one is a trouble maker, not me (chuckles). And I grew up among arguments – political arguments, issues which really concerned humanity. And I found out that basically, I gravitated towards recognising the basic worth of human beings. I sometimes tell people not to call me a patriot because I don’t agitate on behalf on some entity called a nation. I agitate on behalf of humanity.
So, on which side were you on the Biafra issue?
Oh, I was very much pro-Biafra in the sense that I recognised the fact that the Igbos had been wronged very desperately. They’ve been brutalised in a way that justified their feeling that they were not part of the nation. Let me also say this. Biafra was not entirely innocent in this affair. They were not. But the unleashing of such venom, such devastation on them as a people was sufficient to justify their decision not to want to be part of the nation. So, I was pro-Biafra in the sense that I felt they needed justice. It wasn’t that I was for Biafra as a national concept, no.
Chinua Achebe said he was disappointed by the fact that Nigerians weren’t learning about Biafra in schools. Why is that?
Officials especially do not want to confront their own history, especially the history of which in the making make themselves feel uncomfortable but if we don’t confront our own history and that is a cliché, if you don’t confront your past, you’re going to mess up your future. It’s obvious.
It seems that Nigeria does not want to engage with its history with Biafra in particular
In denial, that is the expression. Nigerians are still in denial.
Many people worry that what Boko Haram is doing right now in the north might lead to a break-up of Nigeria. Others say we are too interwoven to split. Where do you stand on this?
Ironically, Boko Haram might be one of the reasons why Nigeria would stay together. And this is because nobody who has a sense consciousness of neighbourliness would want to leave a neighbour in the lurch. A few years ago, I would say Nigeria was very close to a break-up. But, as I said, it’s a kind of paradox. Now, that one section of it is in trouble, there is a pulling together. It has led a critical mass to the identification with the area which is in trouble but the conscience of many Nigerians has been awakened and they feel they cannot abandon the section.
So, how do you stay together with all these differences?
If I will recognise the plurality of Nigeria, recognise its history, how it came together in the first place, then, we would be able to devise and adopt methods of governance -it can only be one massive decentralisation. That way, Nigeria can stay together. But when you continue to have central governance, Nigeria is on the brink.
Do you still today feel because of your outspokenness, there is some threat?
Fear arrest perhaps. No, these days, elimination seems to be the preferred…
Elimination?
We have more political assassinations, mysterious killings in the last ten years than even during the period of the military. It’s a strange phenomenon. And I don’t think it’s likely that anybody would want to imprison me at the moment. They’d probably think I’d find some other way of writing.
In 1986, the Nobel committee awarded you the Nobel prize for literature. Why do you think it took such a long time for the wider world to recognise this African talent?
Well, my answer tothat is very simple. It takes a while before people to be educated about others. Others are always at a remote distance. What pertains to others often strikes one as exotical since it doesn’t belong to the kind of discipline which you are accustom. And so for me, it has never been a surprise.
What was it like? How did your life change after the Nobel?
Oh, it’s become too hectic. Much much too hectic. My constituency which was already large enough just ballooned out of sense and proportion. And it’s a struggle to try and be yourself which you really are internally when you’re surrounded and overwhelmed by the sheer weight and dimension of your constituency.
Do you see anyone of your stature that can take over the mantle from you? Is there another Wole Soyinka in the making?
Yes, several. The problem is that Wole Soyinka is still around and people are lazy. They don’t look in other directions. And they would find many, not just brilliant writers, but sincere political activists, concerned humanists. Oh, they are all over the place.
Now, for any writer, there is the inevitable question of influence. What would you like your influence, your enduring legacy to be?
Oh, simply recollection of the fact that I passed through.
That’s it
That’s enough
