Chief George Muoghalu, a chieftain of the All Progressives Congress (APC) and Director-General, Senator Chris Ngige Campaign Organisation during the November 16, 2013 governorship election in Anambra State, in this interview with NWANOSIKE ONU, speaks on the election, its lapses, as well as the security situation in country, among other issues. Excerpts:
AS the influx of so many people, including governors, into the All Progressives Congress a blessing to the party or do you see danger in managing the defection?
APC is a brand, and what is happening is expected because the situation where we are today in the country, people have always clamoured for an alternative, a very viable alternative that will provide them with opportunity to express themselves. So it is expected because APC as a party is seen as that alternative and people are moving into APC in droves and there is nothing actually wrong with that because like I have always said in the past, a political party is like a church or mosque where you don’t restrict people from coming in, only that you must have rules and regulations and anybody coming into the party must accept basically that there are set out rules and a constitution governing the operations of the party and when you are moving into such an establishment, you must have it at the back of your mind that you are going into the establishment with a view to (i) abide by the rules and regulation of that organisation and bring in your quota to the development of the organisation and in this case, developing the polity. So I don’t see anything wrong with that. It is expected.
Do you think the PDP has collapsed?
No, I wouldn’t say that the PDP as a party has collapsed because they have government at the centre and they have government in some states but at the same time, sight should not be lost to the fact that there are some problems. They have internal problems which have been brought to the fore and one thing you must understand, because of the position of PDP as a party that controls the government at the center, issues and challenges, internal squabbles and whatever that is brought to the public domain, will certainly concern or affect every politician or affect the polity because of the vantage position they are occupying but that is not to say that the party has collapsed. The party is still there as a strong platform and an alternative also to the APC. For me, I don’t wish them collapsing, I wish them to be there so that some of us who have always wished that we have two strong political parties will have it in place.The APC on one side and the PDP on the other side so that each can call the other to order and provide alternative to the average Nigerian. If you think this side is not doing the right thing, you give the other the opportunity to implement their policies all with a view to improving on the livelihood of the average Nigerian which I believe very strongly in our party the APC is the main.The greatest concern to us as a party is the general welfare of Nigerians. So, I know they have not collapsed, but I wish them well.
Why did APC lose the Anambra election?
I make bold to say being an insider and at the forefront of what happened that there was practically no election in Anambra State. To say APC lost the election is totally unacceptable because it is not true. We found ourselves in a situation where both the government at the centre and the government in the state collaborated with the supposedly Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) to manipulate the entire voting process with a view to installing a pre-determined candidate which I consider a betrayal of people’s trust and confidence. This is also the view of everybody, even the international community agrees with this view. What happened in Anambra State is a charade. What happened in Anambra State cannot be considered an election. If they want to test popularity of APC in the state, if they want to test the credibility or strength of any political organization, let them organize free, fair and credible elections. That is why we are asking for a total cancellation so that whoever is the popular candidate and acceptable to the people will win. If they do that, they know APC as a party will win the election in Anambra State ten times over. Let them stop deceiving themselves by saying there was an election. How can you say there was an election when the voters register had no integrity? What happened in Anambra was not an election because if it was an election, Jega won’t come out to say there were issues, so there was no election in Anambra State, what happened is not a basis for any test to determine the strength or the capacity of APC.If that is what they intend to do in Ekiti and Osun States, God help them because if that is their intention, I can guarantee you that our democracy will not survive its.
You are talking about the lapses in the voters register, is it not due to the inability of APC to organise and examine the voters register as provided by law prior to the elections?
What could we have done? We had no access to the register. There is an organisation called INEC whose responsibility it is to organise free, fair and credible election in Anambra State as in the entire country, but they failed woefully, what are we going to do as a party? There is a limit to what we can do. It is INEC that produces the voters register and it is INEC that plans and executes any election and as such is responsible for the materials. An organization brings voters materials at 5pm to a voting point and you expect voting to start and end at 6pm. Do we have access to the result sheet? INEC delivered materials to some points and withheld result sheets all in an attempt to manipulate the process to achieve a pre-determined result. There was no election; there was nothing we could have done as a party. Even the attention of the world was drawn to this manipulation before the election because I addressed a world press conference where I raised the issue of voters register manipulation. I raised the issue of late arrival of materials, in some cases outrightly non-delivery of electoral material, I raised the issue of withholding of result sheets. Virtually all media houses in the country attended that press briefing where these issues were raised by me and they still went ahead to do the same thing so what could we have done?
You raised these issues and you still participated in the election, why did you have to participate?
Because there were assurances that it was not going to happen; I raised the issue for them to know that we are already aware and INEC in Anambra State was quick to respond that it won’t happen, that we should not worry, that everything will be done right. It turned out that the only thing that went right was withholding result sheets or late arrival of materials and manipulation of the voters register where names of registered voters were removed to make sure a lot of people were disenfranchised, particularly in some local government areas.So what were we supposed to do? I had expected that having raised such issues, INEC would have been honest and sincere enough to prevent such things from happening because they had re-assured us that it will not happen and the whole thing happened the same day, so what could we have done? Practically nothing.
The concern of a lot of your supporters is funding and mutual suspicion amongst all the parties that merged. There were speculations that Ngige had problems of funding prior to the election, what is your take on that?
I make bold to say that funding wasn’t a problem. In actual fact, what are you doing with the funding? Your funding is to handle your logistics affairs and we had no problem or challenge handling our logistics. We had no problem with that. Funding was not an issue at all. One thing about an election is that any amount of money you put into it will surely finish, whether it is in billions or trillions. It is just for the organisation to plan properly, applying the funds available to their specific needs to achieve desired results and that is exactly what we did. So funding wasn’t an issue at all.
But could you have won an election of this magnitude without the backing of other governors under the APC platform? Were APC governors supportive?
The entire APC governors backed the project; I can say that without fear of contradiction. If you recall, a month or so before the election, all the APC governors met in Nasarawa State and the only agenda for that meeting was the Anambra election and all our governors were in attendance, except for one or two who sent their deputies because they were out of the country. How else would they have demonstrated their commitment, some of the governors visited during the campaign in Anambra State to see how we were doing, some came before the election to encourage us, ask question and to see how we were doing. So the governors were totally committed to the project.
But media reports showed that the fund raising dinner you organised in Lagos was a flop because people did not buy up the project.
That is not true
So can you talk us through what really happened then?
Governor of Lagos State hosted a fund raising dinner for Ngige in Lagos and it was successful. Anybody saying something contrary is lying, the videos are there, newspaper publications are there. Captains of industry came, politicians came. Please note that a governor must not appear in person to support a project. Governors could decide to host dinners for a project in their states. Don’t forget that as governors, they enjoy a level of goodwill among their subjects, their contractors and their friends. They can tell their friends to please support Mr. A. Don’t forget also that there is a limit an individual can give in line with electoral guidelines and we are very conscious of that fact.
So what really happened to the political class in Anambra? Your detractors are insisting that one of the reasons why Ngige couldn’t fly or win in this election was that the political class did not endorse him.
Who are the political class? We are the political class; I am from Anambra State, and we are the political class.
They insisted that no politician of note in Anambra supported him.
That is not true. A lot of notable politicians keyed into the project. Those that have value to add, not just anybody.
Anybody else?
There are so many more who endorsed him who may not be known to you. To drive this point home, let me bring in an Igbo proverb that says “When a child is sent to visit a family, even if he meets the parents and older siblings at home, but did not see his or her friend because of whom he or she visited that house, if you ask him whether he saw anyone at home, he will say there was nobody at home when he visited” because as far as he is concerned, there was nobody because the person he expected to see was not there. That is exactly the problem of Anambra State politics. There are specific people who have either out of popularity or notoriety made themselves identifiable as politicians in Anambra State. If you don’t see them in any particular project, you are likely to assume that those people are not supportive and such names in some instances are nuisances, they have no political value to add to you rather they major minuses. There is no law that says all of these credible ones must be together because there are many political parties and interests. There are credible people in the APC, PDP, APGA, Labour Party and others but it is a matter of who is the person, what is his pedigree, what is his style. How has he been in the system, what role has he played? These are questions the person himself may not be able to answer. For the purpose of this election, there were three or four major candidates and these candidates have their individual friendships spread across the political class and they have took advantage of it. There is no way you will expect that one person will attract all. For example, I am identifiable with the APC project, if you are looking for me therefore in the PDP project and you don’t find me you will be right to assume that there are no members of the political class there because it is me you are looking for. If you go to APGA you assume there are none because it is me you are looking for but when you are not looking for me, you are looking for another politician, if you don’t find him in APC you conclude there is no political class there. That is exactly the scenario.
There are reports that a lot of the Deputy Directors of the Ngige Campaign Organisation who handled sensitive positions are people of questionable character. This reflected in the scenario where you were actually fighting against the status quo before your appointment as the DG of the organisation.
If there was any structure before APC, as far as I am concerned, it is immaterial. I am concerned as to the point of the campaigns and elections because Ngige Campaign Organisation is a creation of the National Leadership of the party of which I was at the point of commencement, the Deputy Chairman. Later I became chairman and the Director General which therefore meant I was to run the entire campaign with lieutenants and we had a structure that had two Deputy DGs with about 15 directorates headed by a director and in some instances two deputy directors depending on the size or scope of the directorate. We also had about 15 committees that had specific responsibilities. Each committee had a chairman, deputy chairman and a secretary and that was the way we built up the structure and I must be bold enough to say that I had the support and loyalty of the deputy DGs and all other officers in the organization. In fact everybody accepted my leadership of the organization and we worked as a team and as a family. I didn’t have any challenge as to the status quo because there was no status quo; there was no campaign organisation before I came to take over. We came with the campaign organisation; we started with it up and until now, we are the drivers, we ran the process, so I had no challenge, no issues regarding status quo. But you must understand one thing, you are dealing with human beings. Everybody or most people have their own expectations; a lot of people also have what they expect as results, how they expect their own result. It is a case of 9 + 1 = 10, 1 + 1 + 8 = 10 and 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 5 = 10. The question is achieving the answer, the process may vary from Mr. A to B. Some people may not accept the way I want things done. They may wish it is done their way but unfortunately, I was in charge. But in such situation as a leader, if I think you have a different process of achieving the same result, I call you, hear you out then try and convince you, using my own modus operandi. I compare what I have side by side with your own then at the end of the day, it is either I convince you or you convince me, but the important thing is that we must to achieve the result. That is how we worked so I didn’t have any challenge, so to speak.
But your detractors see some of these directors, stakeholders and keyholders as people who did not have the capacityand credibility to win their Local Governments, Wards or even booths, so they ask how Dr. Ngige can bring these people to work with you, because the whole thing became a case of old wine in a new bottle.
Fine, you see the issue of winning wards or Local Governments is not a basis for assessing the capacity of the peopleyou are working with, reason being simple; there was no election. If you come to somebody’s local government for example, you bring voters register that has no integrity, you manipulate their result, you withhold the result sheet, you deliver materials late and at the end of the day you say the man did not deliver, you are not being fair. If there was free, fair credible election, a voter’s register with integrity, materials delivered on time, election conducted, result sheet available and results announced, if those process were followed and at the end of the day the person fails to deliver then you can blame the person. There are circumstances also that may affect an individual’s capacity to deliver within his local government or ward. That is not to say that I will like to defend non performance, no I will not defend non performance, I will rather support and encourage performance, but I must also not lose sight of the fact that when a deliberate impediment is placed on the way, there is practically nothing the person can do and more so, we must not expect to win in the entire 21 local government areas of the state reason being that the candidates who are running the same election with you, have their individual strongholds. Strongholds that were built out of sentiments and/or performance which you cannot wish away. For example, there is no way my people will like a stranger more than they like me, especially when I have the pedigree. These are the realities you must put into account if you are making any honest political assessment.
Can you beat your chest and say that Dr. Chris Ngige was actually prepared for this election? I asked this question with regard to the allegation that he lacks inter-personal skills; he did not reach out to the business community that no businessman of note in Anambra backed or endorsed him.
The mistake you are making about backing and endorsement is that most notable businessmen will not come out in the open to back a candidate to avoid jeopardizing his business interest.
Is that not debatable?
Sure it can be debated, it is not rocket secure but the point is that some people may decide to take the risk. So the businessmen who supported him may have done so devoid of the expected publicity as they may have businesses running with the Federal Government, knowing fully well that Federal Government is antagonistic to the man’s ambition, they might have projects with the state government knowing fully well also that the state government is antagonistic towards the man’s ambition, so these are realities that cannot be ignored. You must take this into account in making any assessment. As for preparation, I can beat my chest and say the man was prepared for the election.
As a person or as a candidate?
As a person and as a candidate, there are certain things you cannot take away from him; you cannot take away his popularity, which is anchored on experience, having been there before. So a good percentage of the people who are aligned to him, are aligned to him on that note.They keep saying that if he could do all he did within a space of three years when he was Governor before, if he is given the opportunity, he will do better and he will improve on what he did in the past.That is why the campaign was anchored on experience counts.
Let’s look at APC at the national level with regards to the 2015 general elections. Most people feel that APC is a paper tiger, just blowing hot air?
APC as a party is fully prepared for election; we only keep throwing this challenge to the establishment, give us the enabling environment, we want an INEC that is truly independent, committed to delivering on their mandate of providing free, fair credible election.Their mentality must change; their attitude must change if they are sincere about giving us a credible election in 2015. We are asking the security agencies to see themselves more as Nigerians who have a responsibility to Nigerians more than an individual or a political party who certainly will go one day, they must be neutral. Once this tool is put in place, the responsibility of voter education lies both with INEC and the parties, to keep educating the voting public.As for being prepared, APC as a party is fully prepared and will continue to prepare for elections. I remember I told you sometime back that the strength we have, which I pray we don’t deviate from, is internal democracy. Whatever it will take, I am among those who will continue to champion it, I know the party is focused on it, there must be internal democracy in APC as a political party, and we must have internal democracy, create the enabling environment for everybody to everybody. Everybody has to have access to power, if you are the popular candidate of your people, you must be allowed to contest election, whoever wins primaries should be the candidate, whoever shows interest to contest for any office, please allow him to contest.The moment we agree on all these things, I am sure we will be on cruise control and the party will continue to grow. The only time we are going to have problem is when we deviate from theseprinciples. These progressive principles we laid down by ourselves as a guide.
Talking about deviating from principles, from 1999 to date, most Nigerians accuse PDP of lacking in ideology and one thing that people see in APC is that they are equally ideologically bankrupt because it has become an all comers affairs and at the end of the day, there is no single ideological point to where you can say, this is why APC is existing other than the craze and crave for power.
I will recommend that you read our manifesto and constitution.If you read the two; you will understand basically that progressism and the welfare of the people are the two key cardinal points in the party. As to people who are coming in, if you are willing to follow the rules, you are welcome because we already have a manifesto written down and we agree that everybody must implement this manifesto and the manifesto covers every aspect of our national life.
But you have an infusion of PDP governors who have been governors for almost 8 years and they were not ideologically driven, they were just there to share the money according to some Nigerians and now they have joined APC……………
I don’t agree
They have joined you
The governors, who came into the APC today, have a track record of performance. Would you say Kwakwanso is not performing, would you say Wamako is not performing, would you say Amaechi is not performing? Or the Kwara man, what about Al-makura. Who amongst them will you boldly fault? Except if you are blinded by bias.
That is your own opinion and it is debatable.
Certainly, there is no situation that is not debatable; it depends on the angle you are coming from, but there are empirical evidence to judge this people, but one thing everybody has been preaching is; when you come into a new system, you certainly will adapt, there may be changes you have to make in your operational methodology because the truth is that you are coming into a progressive party built on the premise of equality, justice and good governance , anchored on the welfare of the people. The sum total is; where does the average Nigerian stand in your calculation. We are saying things are not right, we want to change it. We are saying that the peoples vote must count; we are saying that the people must be the reason for government; we are saying that the educational system has collapsed; we are saying healthcare delivery has practically collapsed, we must look at them. We are talking about security, we say we must look at them, we are talking about power and these are issues we have taken and studied critically and came out with a manifesto which I recommend to every Nigerian.
Beyond the manifesto sir, you are talking about Amaechi and others; Governor Amaechi gets close to N20b per month from the Federal account.
I had to talk about them because you mentioned the governors that came in but if you want to assess the performance of our governors, I will give you reference points.
Please do
Go to Lagos , go to Borno, go to Zamfara, go to Yobe, go and see what is happening there.
But is Amaechi a reference point?
Why not?
With N20b every month and some people in Rivers State are insisting that he has not done anything with the money?
You must not fail to note that the people who speak to the media may not be the people who speak the mind of the people.
Is that not the same thing you said?
That is an independent opinion, get down to Rivers State and see what is on ground, look at what the state was before he came in because when you are making an assessment of anybody, you assess him or her from the point where he started, where he is and where he is going to. It will not be fair if you start assessing somebody without knowing where he is coming from. The issue of Rivers State getting N20b has been there, Akwa-Ibom gets far more than that, Delta State gets far more than that so, when you are assessing Rivers State, you assess him taking account of where he is coming from, where he is and where he is going to. When you look at states like Zamfara, Borno and Yobe, despite the challenges of insecurity, go there and see practical governance, go to Lagos today, go to Ekiti and Edo , go to Oyo, go to Ogun, these are practical things, it is something you go and see for yourself.
Have you been to Jigawa or Katsina?
The last time I spoke to you, I said Jigawa and Katsina governors are doing well.
So would you want to compare somebody who collects N20b monthly to somebody who collects N3b?
Compare Katsina with Zamfara and Borno, these are states that are on the same pedestal. If you say Amaechi gets N20b, compare him with Delta that will be a fair comparison. You can’t compare Amaechi who gets N20b and Zamfara who gets N3b. Look at Imo State ; compare it to any other South-Eastern State except Enugu . Just look at Imo State in 2years compare to other states in the south-east. You are talking about something that is practical, go to Owerri, go to Okigwe, to go Orlu. You see governance in practical terms and you ask yourself where this state was before this man came in? Where is it today and where will it be tomorrow, what is it going to be like after four years, if this can be achieved in two years. So if you are talking about states that get N20b, compare them with other states that get N20b. It will be an unfair comparison if you compare Akwa-Ibom with a state like Zamfara because what Akwa-Ibom gets in one month is what Zamfara get in one year.
But supporters of President Goodluck Jonathan’s presidency have insisted that if you want to do comparison in the aviation and agricultural industry before he came into power, he has done a great job………….
At what cost, let us put the cost implication on the table.
But you never said anything about cost implication in what Amaechi is doing
Yes, you mentioned Amaechi gets N20b, I said fair enough, he gets N20b but if you want to compare him, compare him with Delta that gets over N20b, compare him with Akwa-Ibom that gets over that, if you want to compare Zamfara, look for a state that gets N3b, if you want to compare Borno look for a state that gets within the range of N4b, despite the security challenges there.
So are you saying the Federal Government has not done anything in agriculture? Because the Minister of Agriculture, recently got an award from Forbes Magazine because of his strides in Agriculture. Aviation is another sector that has witnessed a lot of positive innovation. Are you not recognizing these marked achievements?
It will be unfair to say there is none, there is improvement no doubt. But then, is there where we should be?
And the Niger Delta Ministry for instance…….
For the Niger Delta Ministry, it was created to address the imbalance, to address the failures of previous government as it concerns the Niger Delta people and it is commendable.
What is your take on the importance of the ministry?
The fundamental issue here is that we already have a Niger Delta Affairs Ministry to address the imbalance; I therefore want to commend the government for appreciating that there is a need to correct an imbalance. The leadership as at then who created the ministrymust be commended; they should also be commended for what they are doing now because the important thing is that you are addressing the issues that concern the people. I am a people-oriented politician and anything that has to do with alleviating the challenges of the people, the imbalance, the unfair treatment at any point in time, no matter who is involved, I am for it. So I am totally for the Ministry of Niger Delta Affairs, I also want to use this medium to appeal that it should be properly funded. For example, this East-West road is almost a National embarrassment. It is a key project in the Niger Delta region, that once it is delivered, you will notice some improvement both in the economic development of that area. So I can’t sit here and tell you that the federal government has done nothing.That would be very unfair. I am not a politician who criticizes just for the fun of it. Any time I criticize any particular policy of government, I try to proffer an alternative. The point I have made is that, yes there is improvement in the aviation sector no doubt about it, but at what cost, a lot more still has to be done.
Talking about APC’s convention in 2014, speculations are rife that people like you are gunning for the removal of the zoning process so that it will enable you run for the chairmanship of the party, what is your take on this?
Well, speculation is part of political life. Anybody can speculate anything, I believe that there is need for zoning so that every interest will be accommodated, so that there will be equity. As for the speculation, I like you to know that once you are in the open, anybody can say anything about you. Some of these speculations are anchored on confidence, some may feel that you are good to do something; some may also feel that you are qualified to do something and the speculation can be built based on that. But I believe my main concern today is that we should first build a strong party, we need a strong party before we start talking of who aspires to be what. When the convention comes, we will be able to take our decision, but what I can tell you confidently is that there is consultation going on everywhere.
But are you going to contest for something even though you don’t know what to contest for as it is now?
Yes I am consulting very widely. I am not a politician who dabbles into things, I like to consult. I like knowing what my friends, supporters and leaders think so that you don’t make any mistake. It is not a do-or-die thing; it is about offering service, it is about bringing to bear your experience, knowledge and what have you. But when you take this into account, you still have to understand that in every structure, there is leadership, there are interest groups and you must work in tandem with that. And that is why I said for now, we are still consulting and when we finish with the consultation, we will issue a statement to that effect.
Finally, let us look at the issue of security. Few months ago before now, it was like hell let loose in Nigeria but thank God during the Christmas period, we did not hear of bombings, killings and all that, it looks like finally Mr. President has gotten hold of the security issues in the country, do you agree?
We have had a lot of issues on security, but that we did not have any incidence in very strategic places in the country during this holidays is a welcome development and I am happy about it. This is one area nobody wants to play politics with because you can’t talk about driving an economy in an insecure environment. For me, anything that can be done, any sacrifice that can be made to make the country safe should be of primary consideration because I see it as a primary responsibility of government and I welcome it. So we will keep praying that everybody concerned will live up to expectation and live up to their responsibilities.
Just before you go, still talking about security, INEC has said that the states under emergency rule may not be up for elections in 2015, what is your take on this?
It is a joke because like the governor of Borno said which makes so much sense, the moment you say that, you have given in to the insurgents, you have confirmed that they are in charge, so you don’t do such a thing and more so, with the recent local government election in Yobe State which was reported as free, fair and peaceful with a large turnout has made nonsense of that assertion, so I think that we should not think about that, INEC should prepare themselves and go and conduct elections in those states at the proper
