Category: Politics

Chief Deji Fasuan, retired Permanent Secretary in the old Ondo State and frontline social commentator and critic, spoke with Sulaiman Salawudeen about the need to introduce Parliamentary  System of Government, restructure and run Nigeria along the six regional line, while merging the states and local governments into a third tier.  

There appears to be so many problems in Nigeria. What is your feeling as a stakeholder?

I think Nigeria is fundamentally in trouble. Basic issues affecting the nation are not being addressed or at best are being inadequately addressed. It continues to surprise me that Nigeria is what it is to day. One can conclude even without any long argument that God loves this country, otherwise just a fraction of what had happened in Nigeria has torn apart other entities. My view is that unless the vital issues are addressed, we will continue to grope in the dark.

What are the issues

One is the pervasiveness of corruption. The institutionalisation of corruption. It is the most pervasive element in Nigerian society today. There is no aspect of our life that has not been debased by corruption. It appears the whole structure of the society is even formulated on corruption. The whole stratum of society is based on fraud.

Are you suggesting Nigeria is the equivalent of fraud?

Perhaps. Talk of any institution that is not being debased by corruption. It appears the whole strata of society is based upon and formulated on corruption. The whole concept is fraudulent. Look at the civil service, look at our political arrangement.

Is the geographical division of Nigeria itself not fraud?

Geographically, the constituents are incongruous and fraudulent. How can a place across the border here, I mean the next village to Otun-Ekiti here be regarded as North Central. The people there are Ekiti people, point blank! How can you call my own very brothers there northerners. They say they belong in the north central. They are in the original domain of the Oore. There are four sections of the Oore that were taken away.

What about Kogi, Kabba, Ilorin?

Those ones are even a bit far-off. Of course, they are Yoruba as well. Let us consider the immediate contiguous town to Moba. You say that is north central. They are Yoruba. Such mal-arrangement, if not corrected, will continue to haunt Nigeria. Somebody two kilometers to Erinmope yoked with another in Jos, in what you now call the North Central? The whole idea is fraudulent, including the title ‘Nigeria’, with the geographical configuration. It is easy to dismiss what I’m saying as mere theorising. Take our judiciary. Much of it is sickening. Let me give practical example. There are some people who two, three years ago, were paraded, taken to court in a ceremonial way, got them exposed to the media only to hear that they are on bail. And that was the end of the whole thing. Billions of naira went down the drains. Just two or three in that group of hundreds are unlucky. The Group Managing Director of a bank, who stole more than N100 billion was sentenced to 1 or 2 years in prison most of which he spent in a comfortable hospital apartment; a former Inspector General of Police who also admitted to stealing billions was sentenced to six months imprisonment most of which he too spent outside the four walls of a prison yard; the most recent and possibly most spectacular is that of the so-called party big wig, Chief Bode George. He was sentenced to two years and was actually made to spend the two years where he should spend it in a drama which most believed was punitive, bearing in mind the treatment given to others.

The real sinners who stole our money are today roaming the streets. They are warming up for election now. And the malady cuts across the whole Nigerian landscape. Most saddening of all are politicians who get clean judgments here only to be sentenced, condemned and jailed off-shore, based on and considering the same allegations of corruption, precisely fraud. Can you imagine someone being charged for 171 offences and those offences being cleared 2 or 3 days? The issue is about having judiciary that is completely honourable which would deal with issues as they are presented not on the basis of ‘this man is too important’. Nigeria will not be where it is. People will eschew corruption and criminality.

The problems bedeviling the country like corruption, maladministration seem like a spiral. How can Nigeria break away from this cycle?

And that is a tragedy. It is actually a cycle and one being operated by just about five per cent of the population. Less than five per cent of the population have cornered well over 80 per cent of the collective wealth of all of us – the resources of this nation. The imbalance in the arithmetic will be entirely irrelevant when the trouble comes. We only pray.

How can we begin to actually address these problems. The basic, fundamental, primary steps we should take?

There are two ways to fundamentally address the problems. One is changing the system of government completely. Federalism is bare fraud. we should change it to parliamentary system. We should also make legislative duties/functions part-time. Nigeria’s administration should be parliamentary and legislative duties part-time. You will therefore reduce the retinue of special assistants, senior special assistants, special advisers; even chairmen of local governments have advisers, senior special assistants, assistants, in all departments of life. No local government in Nigeria reaches the so-called grassroots. Not one of them.

Why?

Because the funds are not available for them. The funds that are available are taken up by overheads, salaries and allowances. Go to the local governments, 95 per cent of all monies that come to them go on overheads, salaries and allowances with little for development.

What place do you envisage for the local government in that new arrangement?

There should be no local government at all in the restructured Nigeria in the course of time. The restructured Nigeria should be in this shape: a parliamentary system of government and regionalism should be brought back. A maximum of six regions. Then the state and local governments yoked in one should be the third tier.

Can you make that clearer ?

Okay. The new arrangement should be like this: federal, region and the state and local government merged as the third tier of government. Certain things should be specifically exclusively limited to the federal government; small percentage again to regional government and the bulk of the resources to state governments. I have thought about it. If you have a parliamentary federal system with defined, limited powers with nothing more than 20 to 25 percent of the country’s income available to them, then a regional government, comprising six regions, with another 20 to 25 made available as resources to them as well. Then the bulk of the resources between 45 and 50 per cent of our entire wealth conceded to states. There is no reason the state government in Ado-Ekiti cannot know, should not know and ought not know what we need in Afao-Ekiti. Why do we need a local government in another area? Ekiti State government, hypothetically, is a local government; local to me because it is within my reach.

Pius Ewherido represents Delta Central Senatorial District in the Senate. The only senator elected on the platform of the Democratic Peoples Party (DPP),  speaks on the state of the nation in an interview with our Correspondent Polycarp Orosevwotu at Ewu, his country home in Ughelli South Local Government Area.

On the security, what do you think will become of this country if state po-lice is introduced?

I am one of the first persons that generated this debate over state police and my position at still remains that every crime is a localized one because it happens in a local environment and the best way to it is the participation of the immediate people in that area. The security problems in Delta is not the same as the security problem in Borno State; and the Borno people have a clearer understanding of what their security challenges are.

So, if we allow state police to function, it will act in such a way that it will be the best in fighting crime in this country. I believe that unless we have an arrangement like that, it will be difficult to reduce crime in Nigeria, but some persons will argue that it will be open to abuse and I tell you, everything is open to abuse.

I am for state police and I have not seen any reason to shift from that position. I believe that Nigeria will be a more secured environment if we have state police and this security thing we are talking about is the bedrock of development as it attracts foreign investors and believe only state police can arrest the security problems of this country.

So, you think the state police if introduced, could be influenced by the governors?

My argument is that everything can be abused; but the process can be controlled with provisions for checks, even the governors you are talking about will be shown their boundaries. On how it will be funded, l asked if all the money we are spending on security not part of the funding, I see it as a fundamental thing as long as we all need security to develop, provide jobs, encourage investment and to even live your everyday life.

Don’t you think if we legalize the local vigilance groups and if properly funded will be better than the issue of state police?

I am even talking beyond state police. You can have state police and have what is called community policing. All we need do is to refine some of them. You know we need to refine these vigilance groups because some of them operate operate crudely as if we are in a country without laws. We are supposed to be law-abiding citizens so there must be set of laws that you must obey.

  A lot of people are of the view that administration of Dr. Goodluck Jonathan has not done much in curbing the Boko Haram sect unlike when Obasanjo was in power …

I think government should step up intelligence, not necessarily violence because something tells me that no amount of  threat can win Boko Haram war with guns. You must look into a whole lot of factors and you look at their operations and work more towards prevention.

A lot of Boko Haram people are being killed now. But unless you want the President to commit genocide which you too will not advise, as Boko Haram people are also Nigerians. The only difference is the brutal manner they have descended on fellow Nigerians. I believe part of the reason for the slow arrest of the Boko Haram problem is that it is a new kind of problem with massive operation.

The federal government says they are talking already; they should take that negotiation seriously. Some people don’t believe that there should be negotiation, but I believe that when your children are misbehaving, you must hear them out, then see whether or not you can resolve the problem. I support the negotiation going on, but let it be genuine.

You have been there for about one year now, how many bills have emanated from you and how are they going to affect the lives of Nigerians?

The process of lawmaking is such a cumbersome one but so far, l have presented two bills and submitted the third for presentation. The first one is on devolution of powers and the amendment of the constitution to remove areas of fraud in some government agencies; an amendment that will separate the office of the Auditor General of the Federation from that of the Auditor General of the Federal Government.

Hitherto, the Auditor General of the Federal Government which up till now and until the amendment has no power to audit some federal agencies. And that was the problem we faced with the oil subsidy regime. You recall that Auditor General of the federation has no power to audit the account of the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation (NNPC) but can only approve an external auditor. The Auditor General of the Federation takes care of those accounts that are common to the states and the federal government. That one is the distribution pool from where you have both the states and the federal government. Auditor General of the Federal Government should be a separate Auditor concerned with only Federal Government Account. The Auditor General of the Federation should preside over those accounts that are both federal government and the states and it should be rotational from state to state.

By section 85.3 of the constitution, the Auditor General is precluded from auditing the account of certain government corporations and bodies which I believe is an anomaly because if the Auditor General of the federation had the responsibility of auditing those accounts, I am not sure that we will run into those kinds of problems that we ran into in the oil subsidy problem. The Farouk report although troubled today, also detected that, and that is why they recommended that the Auditor General should now be allowed, but even the report of the House of Representatives Committee saying that, the Auditor General should be allowed cannot be implemented in the face of the provisions of section 85.3 of the constitution; so you must amend this section to make it possible for that to happen.

Second one is the welders’ regulation council bill that has to do with the industries, the welding profession industries especially in the oil sector. Hitherto, there has not been proper standardization of the welding profession in Nigeria in terms of standard.

The third one I have submitted is that of co-rporate manslaughter and we had to do that after the Dana air crash. You know there were early reports that the air craft was certified by experts from Ghana, but administration overruled it. If that is true, it means that somebody whodecided to put an unfit air craft on air caused the loss of over two hundred and fifty lives. So, I decided to work on that bill so that both companies and the individuals will not escape subsequently and that will deter such actions. It will place people on guard and make them more careful.

How has it been as a Senator, considering the fact that you are the only elected Senator from the DPP?

The Senate has been a challenging place, though interesting this past year. This is one of the most turbulent years in Nigeria’s history in terms of internal strife especially by the Boko Haram sect; and so, the senate spent most of the time on security issues than issues like unemployment and poverty, including trying to correct some of the ills perpetrated by privatization and the subsidy regime. But my status as a senator from a party has not affected my legislative works as such. What I have observed in the senate is that across political parties we have always been at peace. May be issues may crop up later that will make them show some of us that we are a microscopic minority, but for now I am not sure that there is a discrimination that has made me feel minority status.

But how has your one year in the Senate affected the lives of the people you represent?

I have started in terms of empowerment and other things and you know there is a limit to which a legislator can go, but within the limit of means as a legislator and with other agencies, we have been able to do something substantial. I think I will call it a good start.

You are aware Delta central comprises eight local government areas and as l speak, we have just finished training of 80 women – 10 from each local government area in various trades. It is ongoing; the next batch will be 100 boys that will be trained in various trades. We have also done a lot in terms of empowering those who are good craftworkers and others to set up productive ventures that will earn them a living apart from those we have helped to get employment.

We also have a scholarship scheme that has been there with over 150 students as beneficiaries of N100,000 each per session. Those in law school get N200,000 per session. I put a lot of premium on education. I believe we should encourage education by giving scholarship to indigent students, especially those student that their parents are very poor and cannot afford to pay for their education.

During the election, I did promise that we would revive the Urhobo language. Thus, we have set up a programme, which examination will be written this month and it is tagged ‘Urhobo language competition’. The essence is to encourage our youths and young ones and we have a brand new car as the star prize and other consolatory prizes.

The issues that we brought to fore in the senate also include the troubled Delta Steel Company and I am sure that with the intervention of the senate, there will be progress and its aggrieved pensioners will smile at last.

the Urhobo had oftentimes cried of marginalization by the federal government. With the fact that you are a lone voice in the Senate, how do you intend giving them full representation?

First, I have interacted with Mr. President on the state of Urhobo nation and he gave some assurances, but one of my biggest worries is the place of the Urhobo people in Nigerian politics at the federal and state levels going by its numerical strength in the state. Though it beats my imagination to think that Urhobo, the fifth largest ethnic nationality in Nigeria, has no representative in the federal executive council, boards and not even appointee or having anybody over the 400 parastatals in this country. It calls for concern, but as I said, we are doing work on it and we hope that we will get some response very soon. I will continue to interact with government on it so that we can get our proper place in the polity.

The Niger Delta region has been expressing discontentment with slow pace of the construction work on the East-West Road, what have you to say?

The Senate Committee on Niger-Delta has once questioned the Minister on it and he said that the funds provided were inadequate. I think it is the desire of the both the committee and every well meaning Niger Deltan that more funds be provided as the road is crucial in terms of linking the East-West road. We are all concerned about it and whatever we can do within our power, even appealing to Mr. President for more funds to speedy the completion of the project, we will do.

Still on the Niger Delta, many Niger Deltans are of the view that Mr. President is not doing much that region, more so that he is from this region?

If you ask me, the question of development of the Niger Delta region is not just an issue for Mr. President alone. Yes I believe that Mr. President should do more, but I also believe that our various state governments from the 13% derivation money should do a lot to complement the effort of the Federal Government.

What is your reaction to the sale of oil blocs in the country?

 My worry is the way and manner it is being carried out as if our people should not have been saying things on matters that concern them. There is no way you can just sell oil blocs as if we are in a community of idiots. I say this because of the safety concern that has been raised by the people and the clandestine manner some of the sales were carried out without the knowledge of those inhabiting the area. I think we have come to a state in this country where people should not believe they can take people for granted in their areas and get away with it. Well, they may succeed for a while, but I foresee a major uprising unless our people are carried along in the sale of some of these oil blocs. So, my advice is that if we are serious, we must first carry the people along.

The State of Osun will soon become the envy of other states going by the transformation agenda of Gov Rauf Aregbesola, Special Adviser to the

Governor of Osun State on Land, Physical Planning and Urban Development, Dr. Ayodele Owoade, has said.

According to Owoade, Gov Aregbesola is 150 per cent committed to the state, a bug which he said had infected the people working with the governor.

He disclosed that the people working with him had also caught the bug. “Those of us working with him have been infected with his vision, his enthusiasm, passion and his aggression. Everything about Ogbeni, if you have to work with him, is infectious. He wants this state to be the envy of the world,” said Aregbesola’s aide.

“He wants this state to be an example of what black men could do. He wouldn’t accept for one second that black is an inferior concept. His vision is clear-cut. He wants to transform the state completely – socially, economically and politically. He wants to transform the whole state such that we would be the reference point of what black people could do, “ he said.

Expatiating further on the infrastructural development initiative being embarked upon by the state government, he said: “Recently, the dualisation of Osogbo/Ikirun/Okuku to Kwara State border was signed. It is N17.5 billion worth of contract and the financing was thorough. “

He disclosed that the Aregbesola administration had made tremendous re-engineering of the economy of the state through impeccable approach to revenue generation.

. “We inherited a pathetic economy with an Internally Generated Revenue (IGR) of N300 million per month, and just by blocking leakages, the IGR has increased to N600 million. The target before the end of the year is to increase IGR to N1 billion.”

“We want to make the State of Osun the economic hub of this region. We have a plan that anybody from Kwara, Delta, Ekiti and other places can bring their luggage here for onward transportation to Lagos for free. We are building the facility at Dagbolu now and when that is completed, invariably when people bring their things here, opportunities will rub off on all. Also, the government awarded contract for the dualisation of Osogbo to Gbongan junction and the expansion of the road to Ogbonyinfa, Ago Owu to Ijebu Igbo and to Lagos.

“We are making Osun the preferred route, even if you are coming from the north, Ilorin or wherever on your journey to Lagos. Things are being done so that in the next two years, IGR will expand. Once economic activities boom, many people will have the opportunity to come home and engage themselves. Apart from road expansion we have invested heavily in education with about 30 billion splashed on improvement of school infrastructure.

The unborn baby in Nigeria today is not oblivious of one fact:

That solving the nation’s leadership crisis has remained as hugely problematic as the Gordian knot.

However, an eye-opener came to the fore last week. It was at the thought-provoking presentation by Kalu. The event was the Professor U. A. Ijalaye Annual Lecture held at the Obafemi Awolowo University (OAU), Ile-Ife.

The chief hosts were members of Equity Chambers who used the occasion to mark the chambers’ 25th anniversary. Kalu’s presentation was entitled, ‘Leadership: Key factor to a better Nigeria.’

To the hugely successful businessman-turned-politician, leadership transcends rhetorics. “It is something we have to fundamentally inculcate at all levels if we really want to make Nigeria work again without crutches,” Kalu, Member of the Order of Niger, affirmed.

His position is perhaps explainable by his humbly turning down of his hosts’ offer of a befitting lavatory when he was pressed up before the presentation which held at the Ogunbanjo Hall. “As a leader, you must be on the side of the people; I will use your toilet here, no matter how bad,” he said amid applause.

Thunderous ovation shook the venue of the event to its foundation when Kalu’s “intimidating” profile was read by two law students in an entertaining fashion. Then, time for Kalu to unveil what appeared his panacea for the nation’s leadership woes.

The Dean of the Faculty of Law, Prof. Olu Adediran; the Alapetu of Ipetumodu, Oba James Adedotun Adegoke; Kennedy Amos, former President, Equity Chambers, and other dignitaries at the event hanged on Kalu’s lips as he dissected what he called the “collapsing” nation’s inept leadership.

“At 52, there has been consensus of opinion over the years that the problem of our country is largely leadership. Professor Chinua Achebe put it succinctly in his seminal work. ‘The Trouble with Nigeria’, published in 1983: “The trouble with Nigeria is simply and squarely a failure of leadership. There is nothing basically wrong with the Nigerian character. There is nothing wrong with the Nigerian land or climate or water, or anything else. The Nigerian problem is the unwillingness or inability of its leaders to rise to the responsibility, to the challenge of personal example, which is the hallmark of true leadership,” he opened up, agreeing with the erudite professor on his lamentation about 30 years ago.

He re-echoed the frustration of late Dr. Nnamdi Azikiwe and Dr. Dozie Ikedife, former president of Ohanaeze Ndi Igbo on leadership in the same way. So he did on Mr. Herman Cohen, one-time United States Assistant Secretary of State for Africa.

Amid nods of affirmation, the ex-Abia governor expressed agreement with James A. Autry’s position as enunciated in his book, ‘The Servant Leader’, that: “Leadership is not about controlling people; it is about caring for people and being a useful resource for people.”

The late President Umaru Yar’Adua, as a servant leader, he said, had a good vision and a good approach to leadership in Nigeria. To him, he would have been a servant leader in the real sense of it if his health did not fail him.

Again, to Kalu, General John Pershing of the U.S Army made an incontrovertible point when he described leadership thus: “A competent leader can get efficient service from poor troops; while on the contrary, an incapable leader can demoralize the best of troops.”

An admixture of shock, gloom and despondency descended on the gathering when Kalu recalled painfully how, since 1966, the nation had been struggling for a breath of life in the claws of unwilling leaders who, ab initio, had no plans for the country.

“In 1966, the military struck through Major Kaduna Nzeogwu, and some other young military officers. At the end of it all, they could not seize the reins of power. It was Major-General J.T.U. Aguiyi-lronsi who became head of state. Did he prepare for power? No. It was just thrust on him by fate.

“In 1976, the military struck again, through Lt. Col. Buka Sukar Dimka, and the head of state, the charismatic and inspiring Murtala Muhammed, was assassinated. The then Chief of Staff Supreme Headquarters, Gen. Olusegun Obasanjo, became head of state. Was he ready for the responsibility? No. In fact, according to Gen. T. Y. Danjuma, the then Chief of Army Staff, Obasanjo had to be cajoled and threatened, before he accepted the responsibility of being head of state,” Kalu said

“In 1979,” he continued, “Alhaji Shehu Shagari wanted to just be a senator. He ended as president, unprepared for the big task. Chief Ernest Shonekan was a corporate chieftain at the UAC. Ruling Nigeria was the farthest thing from his mind. In 1993, he was drafted into office as leader of the Interim National Government (ING).

“In 1999, Obasanjo had just returned from prison, when he was drafted into leadership again. I remember he asked: “how many ‘Ps’ do you want to make out of me? I have been president, I have been prisoner; yet, you want me to be president again.” Obasanjo ruled for eight years, despite not being prepared to be president initially and even planned for a third term.”

Amid pin-drop silence, he revealed further: “My friend, Umaru Yar’Adua had been governor in Katsina for eight years, and according to him, he was preparing to go back to the classroom to teach Chemistry. Suddenly, he was drafted to be president. Goodluck Jonathan had become Bayelsa State governor when his former principal, D.S.P Alamieyeseigha was impeached. All he wanted in 2007 was a full term in office as governor. But he was drafted to be Vice President, and within three years, he became president.”

His hearers who had listened with rapt attention were almost in tears as he asked: “Why does Nigeria get reluctant leaders? Is this country cursed or jinxed? Why do those who scrupulously prepare for leadership never get it?” Continuing, he said: “We know of Chief Obafemi Awolowo, “the best president we never had.” We know of Bashorun M.K.O. Abiola, the man who wanted us to bid farewell to poverty. We know of many others who had prepared and groomed themselves for leadership. They never got it. But the reluctant ones got shoved into office and power. What is the matter with Nigeria?” “Researchers in our academia, please help look into this and tell us what the problem is,” he pleaded passionately.

Heaping praises on African leadership icon Nelson Mandela of South Africa, whom, according to him, once asserted that “quitting is leading too,” Kalu expressed sadness that many African leaders do not appreciate and understand it, adding that one of Mandela’s greatest legacies today is the fact that he left just after one term, a feat that according to him, positioned him as a globally respected icon.

He boiled with anger that in Africa, particularly in Nigeria, attempts to subvert the constitution and sit tight in office has become the norm. At that point, he had harsh words for Obasanjo over his attempt to extend his term in office beyond 2007, after he had fulfilled the constitutionally prescribed maximum of two terms.

Heads shook in obvious pity for Kalu when he recounted how his businesses were virtually grounded by the Obasanjo administration because he dared to speak against his sit-tight bid. “Till today, some of us are still paying heavy price in terms of economic losses for stopping Obasanjo from getting a third term,” he hinted.

The he gave an advice which many easily conjectured was meant for Jonathan in view of the prevailing cataclysms in the country: “Quitting is leading too. If you find yourself incapable of discharging the duties and responsibilities of your office, then quit. If the entire country is complaining about your tenure in office, throw in the towel. Bow out gracefully if the country is about to break into pieces under you. We must learn to quit when we are unable to discharge the trust, which leadership is all about.”

Quoting from his book, “Orji Kalu: Leadership Lessons from a Master Strategist” he said: “In leadership, you can’t always run faster than the people you are leading. While a good leader should not be led by the people, he also must not ignore the people. There must always be a meeting point. I see leadership as both inborn and acquired through some form of tutelage or experience. You can be born a leader. You can also be groomed as a leader.”

He referred to the words of ex-President Ibrahim Babangida in his 31st independence speech in 1991, thus: “We believe and do affirm that what the nation requires is a leadership that recognizes the problems at the roots of our national life; a leadership which decides to risk its will and reputation to solving these problems. We hold firmly to the belief that our Nigeria of tomorrow is precious enough for us to sacrifice our today.”

Senator Magnus Abe, a lawyer, represents the Rivers Southeast Senatorial District in the Upper Chamber of the National Assembly. He is the immediate past Secretary to the Rivers State Government (SSG). A former Rivers Commissioner for Information, an ex-member of the Rivers State House of Assembly and the Chairman of the Petroleum Downstream Committee in the Senate, the Senator is being rumoured to have interest in Rivers governorship in 2015. In this interview with BISI OLANIYI and CLARICE AZUATALAM, he speaks about the rumour and some national issues.

How many versions of the Petroleum Industry Bill (PIB) are now before the National Assembly and when will the authentic version be passed into law?

Only one copy was presented to the National Assembly. We have not started work on the PIB because it was brought in the very day the members of the National Assembly were proceeding on vacation. The important bill will pass through the normal processes of the National Assembly before it becomes law.

The PIB will resolve most of the challenges in the downstream sector of the petroleum industry when it eventually becomes law. Everybody knows that Nigeria substantially relies on Niger Delta’s hydrocarbon resources for survival. Any legislation that will substantially affect how we relate to our hydrocarbon resources, will receive the highest scrutiny from everybody, not just from members of the National Assembly. I believe that all of us in the National Assembly are aware of the interest the people of this country have in the PIB. What we have now is the executive version, presented to us by the executive. I assure all Nigerians that everybody who has something to contribute to the PIB will be given opportunities because it will be an open process.

Therefore, I sincerely cannot say how long the PIB’s passage will take now. Everybody in the National Assembly knows the importance of the law. I believe that we will all work together to see that it is dealt with expeditiously. I thank the people of the Niger Delta for the contributions and the sacrifices they have made and will continue to make for the improvement of our country. Nobody, including the people of the Niger Delta, should depend on crude oil and gas alone. All of us in this country need to look beyond crude oil and gas.

As an Ogoni leader, are you satisfied with the steps taken so far by the Federal Government in implementing the recommendations in the report of the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) on Ogoniland?

The Federal Government started the action it is currently taking on the UNEP report before any statement of any kind was made by anybody. A daughter of Ogoni, Joy Nunieh-Okunnu, a lawyer, was appointed to head the efforts. Like any other responsible Ogoni son, we are not making public comment at this time, because we want to give her every opportunity to clarify her position and do what she has to do. When we understand what is going on and how the process is being run, we will make our contributions.

Also, the process of consultation must be seriously looked into by all the stakeholders, so that nobody feels left out of whatever processes are being brought into the area. So, if all of us start dictating from the sidelines, even before we understand exactly what is going on, will not be helping Nunieh-Okunnu. She has been part of the struggle. She knows the pains and we believe that she will do her best.

Are members of the National Assembly satisfied with the number of persons being tried for fuel subsidy scam?

There are laws in this country and if anybody flouts the law, our understanding within our constitution and our system of constitutional democracy is that such a person should be tried in a proper court of law and if he or she is convicted, the person should be punished.

If we try people until the members of the National Assembly are satisfied or not, that is not the proper way. What needs to be done is that all those that have questions to answer should go and answer those questions.

Is it true that you have interest in contesting as Rivers governor in 2015?

Ordinarily, there are some things you do not respond to. We are in 2012. I have just been elected into the Senate. What we need to do in Rivers State at this point is to support what Governor Chibuike Rotimi Amaechi is doing and not to distract him. I can say with certainty that if there is anything that pains me, sometimes, it is a lot of these speculations.

I went round some parts of Rivers state and I came back and told Governor Amaechi that a lot of people are not using the newly-built model health centres in the 23 council areas of the state. A lot of people are going to churches to give birth, while right behind them are health centres, with doctors, paid for with Rivers people’s money. Let us focus on things that are ongoing. Let us see how we can help to bring out maximum value and make those things part of our people. That is what we should be doing at this point, instead of speculating on things that are not yet before us.

Senator Abba Ibrahim, a former governor of Yobe State, recently alleged that almost all Nigeria’s wealth has been cornered by Niger Deltans through the Niger Delta Development Commission (NDDC), amnesty programme, 13 per cent derivation and the Ministry of Niger Delta Affairs, among others. What is your reaction?

There is nothing new in what Senator Abba Ibrahim has said. He has always said it. One question I have always had for him is: why is it that every time Nigerians gather, all we talk about is how money is being spent and not how money is being made?

Unless we change and stop talking about where this money comes from, we won’t make any progress. Even if you carry the whole money that is in the Niger Delta and give to the North, it will not solve the problems of the North. If you carry all the money in the country and give it to the Southwest, it will not solve the problems of the Southwest.

The challenge of Nigeria is that the country is not productive enough. We are not generating money. We are not working and that is the issue that all of us must begin to address seriously. To keep fighting over 2.7 million barrels per day of crude oil will not help this country. It will bring intractable problems. At the end of the day, even if you give the entire money to one person, he won’t be satisfied. Crude oil is not a business that can take care of the needs of everybody. If you give people money and they do not work, their lives will not be fulfilled.

So, what should be done?

We must look for ways to engage people. The oil industry is not even a labour-intensive industry. How many people work in the oil industry? What is the population of Nigeria? What are the other 150 million Nigerians doing? There is so much in this country that we can tap, including resources in Abba Ibrahim’s Yobe State, to contribute to the development of Nigeria. Why doesn’t he bring those ones to the people instead of quarrelling over what is happening in the Niger Delta?

I understand the challenges in this country but we must begin to think on a national basis. We cannot solve the problems of Nigeria by solving the problems of the Niger Delta, the Northeast, Southwest or other zones and regions of Nigeria. We can only solve the problems of Nigeria by viewing the problems of Nigeria as Nigeria’s problems and dealing with them as such. We actually need to raise leaders who understand that Nigeria is one and for it to be one, every part must not only get, but they must bring.

Since Niger Delta has crude oil and the value is higher, of course, Niger Delta will bring more resources. Those with cattle can also pay tax on the cattle and we will get something. It is applicable to other resources. Everybody must bring in equal strength, in equal percentage of what you are producing. We will share and everybody will benefit because everybody will work.

You are saying that it is time we diversified the economy …

If all the arguments in Nigeria continue to be about crude oil, I do not see how it will help this country. I can take you to Ogoni. We are living where even the air and water that have been tested unsafe. We have Benzene level over 900 times what is allowed by the World Health Organisation (WHO). The water is unsafe for drinking. What is Senator Abba Ibrahim’s own problem with bringing money to solve the problems for fellow Nigerians? Must we die before Nigeria can live? That type of argument does not help this country. If you ask the people of the Niger Delta, they do not think they are getting anything, given the challenges we have been facing in this region. They do not think they are getting a fair deal from the country, but we do not want to keep harping on things that will divide the country. Let us look for things that will help every Nigerian to make progress. If Nigeria is a productive country, this crude oil we are arguing over, will constitute less than 10 per cent of our income.

Is it true that the current representatives of Nigerians at various political levels are actually representing themselves, without quality representation and what do you expect from people of the various communities?

The quality of representation will continue to improve as people begin to understand the challenges that a representative faces. Every time, we talk about the United States and the developed democracies. But development is the quality of the human beings in the country. We have not invested enough in trying to raise the quality of the average Nigerian. We need people that have personal integrity, sense of service and a population that understands that the way to grow wealth in a society is by everybody contributing and not by everybody taking. Our representatives need to also learn that lesson when the general population is learning the lesson.

As it is now, members of the National Assembly are Nigerians thrown up by different dynamics from across the country. There is no way all of them can be bad and there is no way all of them can be good because not all Nigerians are bad and not all are good.

What I will agree to is that we actually need to raise the quality of our citizens. And we can do that by investing in education and by picking out the examples of the things we like and celebrating those qualities. If we stay in a society where we only celebrate wealth and we do not celebrate other services, everybody will go after wealth that the society celebrates.

This society needs to begin to celebrate things, more than just the ownership of property. We need to celebrate ideas, character and honesty, which will make people to give up something to get something.

How can the security challenges be addressed?

In Nigeria, there are so many people who have issues and will like to discuss. We should discuss the issues. We should not wait until people begin to throw bombs because if we do that, we will be encouraging everybody to throw bombs. All Nigerians need to be alive to their responsibilities. Security is everybody’s business. Anybody who throws a bomb, whether in Yobe State, Ogoni, Lagos or Sokoto should be arrested and prosecuted. We should not make excuses for violence. If we do, we will encourage more violence.

Charity begins at home. You are from Bera-Ogoni in Gokana Council area of Rivers State. Are you relating well with Ogoni people in the four council areas – Khana, Gokana, Tai and Eleme – since some people describe you as a government person?

As a human being, you are answerable to your God. It is God who gives life and opportunities. In whatever you do, if you are satisfied that with the opportunities that God has given to you, you have done the best that you can do, you will go and sleep.

Everybody who is in politics, even in your village, you have opposition. If you come out today, you will face it. If depends on the strength and the noise of the opposition. There is opposition. What we pray for is for God to give us the grace to do the things we do, in such a manner that at the end of the day, even your opponents will agree that you have tried. There is no way I can please all Ogoni people. Even in the village of President Goodluck Jonathan, he has opposition.

As long as we are able to make sure that majority of our people get something from us, driving on our roads, drinking our water, using our health centres, attending our schools, they are being paid regularly and they are getting jobs, PDP will continue to win elections. That is how it works.