Pastor Ayodele Oritsejafor is the General Overseer of Word of Life Bible Church, Warri, Delta State. He is also the President of the Christians Association of Nigeria (CAN) and the Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria (PFN), the first to hold the two offices simultaneously. Pastor Oritsejafor is a man of God known for his bluntness and blistering comments on national and religious issues. He is usually not given to yearly predictions, but this seems to have changed in 2013, as he has reeled out predictions about the nation. In this interview with Assistant Editors, LINUS OBOGO and GBENGA ADERANTI, Pastor Oritsejafor spoke on sundry issues and at a point, wept over the anguish brought on the Christian North by Boko Haram Islamic sect. Excerpts:
You are everything rolled into one, a pastor, an author, an apostle, an evangelist, a teacher, but above all, a prophet. We have just entered 2013 today (January 1). As a prophet of God, what prophecy do you have for Nigeria, given that 2012 was bleak, harrowing and tormenting? What does 2013 holds for Nigeria?
First of all, let me begin by saying that every nation has its own spiritual atmosphere over it and Nigerian is not an exception. So, every manifestation you see has its own problems. What is going on is as a result of what is in the atmosphere. Every problem has its spiritual aspect.
What I’m going to tell you now is something I have not done in 40 years. I’ve been very careful not to say things that will hit people hard. But I think the way we are now, I need to say this and I say it with all humility that there is a dark cloud over this nation in 2013. It is very dark. That is the truth. There is a wind which is about to blow this nation (Nigeria). This wind has the capacity to clean up the spiritual atmosphere over this nation.
There are some powerful people who will lose their power base this year. Also, there are some unsung heroes who will be celebrated this year. There are also some unknown people who are nationalistic and who will emerge this year. But I must stress that despite the dark cloud hovering over Nigeria, it is not going to break up. The name Nigeria is not going to disappear from the face of the earth. We should not be afraid, but the unity of this nation is seriously going to be tested to its very foundation. It is going to be pulled to the limits, to the very limits of its existence. We are going to feel all that this year. And on account of all these, I’m saying I want to seriously plead with Christians, especially and also Nigerians of goodwill to join me every last Friday of every month throughout this year, beginning on Friday 25th of January in fasting and prayers and asking God to intervene. It will only bring good out of whatever that wants to happen in this country. And only good will come to us. That is what I have for the nation.
I pray that people will understand what I’ve just said. But if they don’t understand at all, they should at least join me in the last Friday of every month beginning from the 25th of this month. Let us pray and fast because at the end of the day, as I said, every problem has a spiritual side and physical side. Many times, the physical side is a manifestation of the spiritual. I say this with all sense of humility. I’ve never spoken like this in all these years because there are people who think that some of us are just concerned about spiritual things that are floating out there. That is why I avoid saying things like this. I’m a realist and at the same time, I believe that there are issues you and I must deal with. I wish I’m talking to everybody and not just you, The Nation editors sitting in front of me.
I mean everybody who understands spiritual things. If you read your Bible, you will find in the book of Daniel where Daniel was praying for the nation and he went on a 21-day fasting. He was trying to understand the problem of the nation of Babylon and one day while fasting, he was asking God for something. He had just begun fasting and as he went on in fasting, at the end of the second day of fasting, an archangel appeared to him and told him that ‘Daniel, the first day you began your prayer, God heard you and sent me with the answer, but you see, as I was coming, I was stopped in the spirit realm’. He said he was stopped by the Prince of Persia.
There was the physical Prince of Persia, and there was a spiritual Prince who the angel spoke about. But there is another ruler elsewhere in the spiritual realm, somebody who is manipulating things in the spirit realm. That was what the archangel was saying. He said: ‘He stopped me and we fought there until God sent an archangel Michael to join me in the battle. I left Michael to continue until I brought you the answer.’ Now this is my first time of talking this way, I usually don’t like talking this way. But there is hope for this country.
Have you shared this with other great men of God in Nigeria?
This is something that has just been revealed to me in the last one or two weeks. I’ve been in prayer for the country, I do that every year when we are coming to the end of the year. In my position, I have to spend some special quality time with God at a time like this. The most fruitful time I have was actually yesterday (December 31, 2012). Yesterday, I was able to stay alone throughout the night. This is something I’ve just developed. We were entering the New Year and I could not be talking to everybody. I could not even call my friends. But when I return from my travel, there are some people, Christian leaders that I will be meeting with whom I will share something. But you have to understand that what I’ve just told you, it is not everybody that I have shared them with.
When you are leading a large and diverse people, or how do I put it? The Christian church is made up of people of different shades of beliefs and doctrines. You don’t force what you believe on people. I think that is very wrong. People have the right to believe what they want to believe, and that is very important. I respect what you believe. You can’t lead people when you think you know more than everybody and I must say that I don’t know more than anybody. So I’m humble enough to understand that whatever I know is between me and God, but I must respect the views of everybody.
What you have just told us about the country may not be different from what a lay man has already known about the socio-political outlook of Nigeria in 2013. Did God or the Holy Spirit reveal this to you? Or you merely imagined what is going to happen in 2013?
I’m telling you something spiritual. I just told you now that there is a dark cloud over this country and I also told you that some powerful people are going to leave their power base. I also told you that some unsung heroes will be celebrated. Then I told you that some nationalistic personalities unknown will begin to emerge this year. I also told you that Nigeria will not break. Let me be honest with you, I had always felt that Nigeria will break because when you look at the kind of things that are happening, in my own opinion, the worst is the disdain for human lives, the lack of value for the sacredness of human lives. When you consider the way people are being slaughtered, the kidnappings and armed robberies, you cannot but reason that Nigeria will break. The worst is the Boko Haram.
Sometimes, you think every other problem in the country is probably more than the Boko Haram menace. But for crying out loud, this is human blood and every human blood is going to cry out to God for vengeance. Everyone and even the military said that in the last three years, over 3,000 human beings had been killed. These were innocent people, and you don’t think that the 3,000 people will be crying out to God? I hate corruption, but for people to even think that it is corruption that created Boko Haram, I do not agree. It is not true. It is like saying that it was corruption that created Bin Laden, it is still not true. I do not agree that it was corruption that made a Nigerian boy to want to bomb the American plane mid air, no, it was not. It is religious fundamentalist idea.
Not until we start addressing the real issue plaguing the country. Corruption is very bad. It stands side by side with Boko Haram. But Boko Haram has a little edge over corruption.. If Nigeria breaks today, are we going to be talking about corruption? if there is no Nigeria, will you be talking about fuel subsidy? Who is going to use the fuel? Dead people? What I’m saying now should be put in proper perspective. Don’t misunderstand me. Corruption is a terrible thing that is actually eating this country. It also has the potential of destroying this nation, but Boko Haram is much worse.
That was why I felt terrible when one international human rights group was accusing the military of extra-judicial killings. But the group did not mention about 3,000 innocent people killed by a group of mad men. They were more concerned about the criminals who are killing people than them being killed by anybody.
Still on your prophecy Pastor, will the Boko Haram menace and corruption end this year or when will that be? Or what is prophecy concerning Boko Haram?
Again, I don’t want to spiritualise it because as I said, every problem has a spiritual and physical aspect. I told you that there is a dark cloud hovering over this country, Nigeria. Dark cloud is symbolic of some of the problems we just spoke of. But don’t forget that I said there is a wind that will blow and which has the capacity to bring Nigeria to a place where peace that has eluded us for so long will gradually come into the country. But it is hard for me to say that Boko Haram will end but I can tell you that Boko Haram will lose its battle. They will lose and lose big time. What is very terrible about this is that what they are doing now will affect some real people, I mean notable people in this country. It will affect them but for me to put a time line, I don’t know, I will not tell you what I don’t know. I don’t know the time it will end, it is a losing battle for them. Gradually you will see an end to this thing. Evil can never prevail over good, it can’t happen and Nigeria will never be an exception. Even this corruption issue, corruption has now been brought to the front burner in this nation.
There was a time when nobody talked about corruption. It was something that was becoming very significant in the affairs of this country, but today, in fact, a little child now has the idea of what corruption means, if nothing else, the word corruption. For me to give you a time line as to when corruption will end is difficult. Remember, that was why I said I’m pleading with my Christian brethren to join me in the last Friday of every month to let us pray. God speaks, I don’t know what other Christian leaders have been saying. Many times God’s mind is to do something, but don’t forget that when God wants to do something, there are forces that don’t want such things to be done. It is not as if God cannot superimpose. But He doesn’t.
For example, Jesus would have just dropped from heaven and just landed and say I’m Jesus, but He was born. He came through a natural process. Why? because the way God created this world, He created it for human beings not spirit beings. So, when God wants in human form, just His appearance alone will destroy this world. Even the devil himself does not have the legitimate right to live in this world because it was not made for him and when the devil wants to do his work, he makes use of human beings. God uses human beings and the devil uses human beings as well. If you are a good student of the Bible, you will understand that just like Jesus came through the virgin Mary, the same way, some anti-Christ will come. There is gong to be a strong personality in this world, I don’t know when, who will come into this world and take charge of so many things and try to turn people away from God.
You and I know that he will be very strong. That personality is going to be born like any other human being. It is not as if he is going to come and say I am a spirit being, it is going to be a human being, somebody that will come and be accepted by human beings. He will be born somewhere by parents. He will be very intelligent, have two, three or ten degrees, PhD in this, PhD in that. I’m just imagining a powerful peace advocate that is going to connect people and everybody will be hailing him until he gets to a certain position where he will control certain resources and certain things and begin to take control of this world. He will be a very good student of the Bible. God does not interfere in the affairs of the men without using man. There is something going on, that is why those of us who have faith through Jesus Christ are calling on all Nigerians of good and faith to join me in prayer.
If you were asked to proffer solutions to the Boko Haram menace, what would that be?
Again, as I said, every problem has the spiritual side and physical side, but for the spiritual side, I say join me, let us pray. For the physical and practical side, first, I’m back to what I have been saying in the last one and a half years that one of the reasons why security agencies have not been making a headway is because they have certain elements within the security agencies that are part of Boko Haram. Some of them are in strategic positions in the security agencies and it is a fact. But the truth is that in the security agencies, there are some people who are in the strategic positions who shouldn’t be there because most of the time, Boko Haram elements know what they are planning. As soon as they finish planning, the information gets to them. And instead of the military people ambushing Boko Haram, it is the Boko Haram ambushing the military.
What does this say? It is because Boko Haram is getting intelligence information meant for the security agencies. They know more than the military themselves. Sometimes, they know the number of military personnel involved in an operation they know the type of weapons they are carrying and they confront them with more sophisticated ones. What I’m saying is that a lot of these security agencies have been polarized along religious lines. There are some people who believe that they are protecting their religion. Unfortunately, they believe this and they will do everything to make sure that Boko Haram is not apprehended.
Number two, we should stop pretending that this problem is an economic problem because it is not. If you refuse to admit this, you have a problem and you will never solve it. When I open the pages of newspapers and I see responsible people in vantage positions telling us that the reason why Boko Haram exists is because of injustice, inequality, poverty and neglect, I just sit back and ask myself, how can people be so wicked? They know the truth, they know that is not the truth. The truth is Boko Haram is a religious extremist ideology. I’m not calling all Muslims in Nigeria extremist. If you go round the world today, you will also hear the word I’m using, If we keep running away from it, insisting that it does not exist, the problem will remain with us.
But if we can admit that this ideology problem is there, then what must happen is that government and others must find ways of engaging some of our northern political, religious and traditional leaders, but with more emphasis on religion. They must locate a lot of Imams, sheiks and clerics who are at the grassroots who preach to people in mosques, people they have influence on that Nigeria belongs to all of us, that Christians are not their enemies; Christians are their brothers and sisters and we are fighting the same cause, we are together, we are one, they should not give them the impression that Nigerians hate them.
It is an ideological thing. If we have not dealt with this, we have not done anything. So far, I have mentioned two crucial things that must be critically looked into. If these two things are looked into and dealt with properly, you will be surprised how far this issue will go.
That brings us to the final one which is for the ordinary Muslim on the street in these key states to speak out about their sponsors. Some of them are afraid because they feel they will be killed. But a times comes in this life when you will begin to ask yourself, if I speak, I may be killed, if I don’t, we will all be killed. So, we must take quality decisions, we must decide what we want to do. If I don’t speak, not only we will be killed, my children, my children’s children will never have a place of their own called Nigeria.
Let me take you back to January 2012 when Nigerians protested against the removal of fuel subsidy. Many people believe that you have a close relationship with President Goodluck Jonathan, what did you tell him during the protest?
First of all, let me begin by saying that I believe that the issue of fuel subsidy is a complicated and complex one. It is complex and complicated because when you look at it, there are people who say that there has never been subsidy anyway. There are those who question the way it is removed. There are so many different ways of looking at it. I agree that it is very complicated but let me say this, it is only the living people that can fight the issue of fuel subsidy.
So, help me amplify the issue of Boko Haram because if Boko Haram kills all of us, we will not be talking about fuel subsidy and protest. It is very important that we look at it. When I said it then, some people shouted at me saying: ‘you are with them, you are one of them’. Don’t I buy fuel myself? Do you think I like to be buying fuel at a higher price? I don’t want to say something and it will be taken as rude. I was going to say why can’t we have fuel for free? You just go there and pump into your car, after all, I’m from the Niger Delta, my people are suffering. What I’m saying is that we should first solve the security problem of this country and the fuel subsidy thing will be handled.
People say I have a relationship with Mr. President, he is not my enemy. So, I cannot tell you that I don’t know him. But the kind of relationship some people seem to describe sometimes, I don’t know. I don’t just wake up and say Mr. President, here I’m. By my position, I should have contact with the Villa in such a way that if I say I’m coming to see Mr. President, there should be no restriction. That will be the kind of relationship I should say I have. But is that the true position? However, that is not to say that I do not chip in my advice to the President when it is necessary. And it is not something I have to broadcast to the whole world. Should I be telling everyone I see whether or not I advise the President? This kind of thing is that you will not have another opportunity to give that kind of advice tomorrow. But anything that will make life difficult for the common man, I’m against it.
Still on Boko Haram, Mr. President reportedly said that some Boko Haram elements had infiltrated his cabinet. Has it bothered you as to ask him to name them or why he has not flushed them out?
Honestly, I don’t know because I’m not in Mr. President’s mind. My advice is that you should go and ask Mr. President what he meant. Mr. President had a media chat the last time, I was surprised that I didn’t hear any of your colleagues ask him such a question. Honestly I don’t have answers to that. He may have his reasons for saying that. It may be that he does not want you and me to know.
Just last week, you made some donation of six cars, 15 tricycles, sewing machines, 200 bags of rice, among others, to the less-privileged from varied religious leanings. What informed the gesture?
First of all, if God who created you and me allows everybody to live in this place called world, I don’t think I will be in proper place to be the one to question why all these people do exist. When I look at atheists, I look at “juju” worshippers and Christians alike, they all have one nose, two ears, one mouth, two eyes and I don’t see any difference. Religion is by conviction. Some people are born into certain religions, sometimes when they grow up, they will change because they have a conviction to do something else. That is the way I believe the way of God for everyman. Recently, a group of Muslim youths visited me and we had a chat and we discussed many things and I asked them, when we really talk about freedom of worship, do you believe in it? There are some things we see happen, maybe by accident, if a member of my household comes across the street from where I live and sees you mount your preaching equipment as a Muslim and you begin to preach Islam and he listens to you and says I think I like this and he goes, I’m not going to do anything because that is his choice. It is that person’s choice to make that decision. But also, if a Christian preacher in Sokoto or Kano, should stand up to preach freely, and a Muslim living in the home of an Emir decides that what he is hearing is what is best for him, he should not only accept it, but must be allowed to accept it. This, to me, is the true freedom of worship Nigeria needs today.
When I’m dealing with people and it comes to poverty, poverty does not know religion, poverty does not know ethnicity. Poverty is poverty, a man who has not eaten has not eaten so what he needs is food. So when Jesus fed 5,000 men not to talk of women and children, did he select those who were believers? It was a multitude of people who came to hear Him. They could have been from different religions. Christ was not interested in their religion as far as their stomach was concerned. He didn’t say if you have accepted what I have preached come to this side, if you know you have not accepted, go to this side and stay hungry, he didn’t. He described true religion as when you take care of people.
Let us come to something I do every year. It is something that I have been doing for years. It is a way of life for me. What some people don’t know is that I used to charter a plane to the north, Maiduguri, Jos and other places to distribute relief materials to everybody. I’ve been doing that for years not because I’m the CAN President. I have been doing it before I became CAN President. Even before I became the PFN President, I’ve been doing that. Let us take time to give because God so loved the world and what did He did to show this love? He gave his only begotten son as sacrifice. The wise men who came to look for Jesus, when they found him, they brought Him expensive gifts. So, the best expression of Christmas is to give people who don’t have. I wish I could do much more, I wish I had 1,000 brand new cars.
Governments at all levels as well as many of our big corporations and big private companies can afford to give but I wonder why they are not. I do this because at every point when you look at yourself and see what God has done in your life, you must give back to others. There are many people whose lives have been turned around by this little gesture. overnment is not the only business in Nigeria today, but the only business that is thriving is government. If you want a contract, go to government, if you want good money, look for a position in government. Some of these things we do is to see how we can take some of the people who are in the official list of disadvantaged people, poor people, active poor people. It is just my own little way of saying let me help them. We have been doing it officially now for seven years and unofficially I have been doing this for 15 -20 years. There are so many people I have seen through schools. Some have long graduated and are working. Many are in various universities in Nigeria and abroad. It is my joy when I meet them and see that they have become useful to themselves and their relatives. Some of these people, I can’t recognise them any longer. When they see me, they say you did this you did that for me.
You said government is the only thriving business in Nigeria, but several people out there know that government and churches are not only the two thriving businesses, but lucrative businesses in Nigeria today. Why are churches and government the only thriving businesses in Nigeria?
Let me ask you a personal question, do you believe that churches are a thriving business in Nigeria?
(Reporters)Yes Pastor
Then, why have you not opened one? A sensible person, who is normal and who knows that something can fetch him money should go into the business. I’m still surprised that you are still a journalist. I know that an average Nigerian if he sees any opening that can give him a little bit of money and I know you are not different, will not waste time to exploit the opportunity. I know that you are a Nigerian and since churches are making so much money, even if you cannot leave your journalism profession to open a church, why don’t you get your younger brother, just help him to open a church so that you can start making money, so that in the next three months you can help and feed me since there is so much money in the church?
You people deceive yourselves. Just because you see a few rascals here and there doing the wrong thing, you just make a blanket statement and then decide this is how much churches are making. Sometimes some of us are pained by some statements being made by not only some of you in the media, but others as well, but we try and overlook it, we take it like that. You are a journalist, you have the power of the pen, but I have the power of my knees, and you can destroy with your pen, all that I can do is to go on my knees and pray. Sometimes you people use your mouth to say something that will destroy you tomorrow. Some Nigerians see churches as a money spinner, I really don’t understand. If churches are like private businesses, every Nigerian should go into it.
Let me ask you this question, how many people pay tithe in churches? In an average church, according to statistics, only about 20 per cent of members pay tithes. The average poor man does not pay tithe. Is it the man I’m trying to give a car or grinding machine to and who may not even go to church, that will pay tithe? He does not have money to put slippers on his feet. He cannot even give an offering. So when you look at a church, the people who keep that church going sometimes are just a handful of people who by their own conviction would say let me do this or do that for the church.
Let me give you an example, we have a beautiful brochure in our church, I don’t know how many pages, but it costs about N800 plus to make one, but we were selling it for N500. As at last week, they told me that they were still quite a number of them lying around. I have a number of pastors who have good jobs and some of them are businessmen. I have discovered that every businessman is a potential leader either in church or in a secular world. One of my pastors happens to be somebody who occupies very good position in the society, when he heard the announcement, he just wrote a note that I pastor so, so and so will pay for the remaining copies of the brochure, let it be given out free. Some pastors even said don’t sell the brochure again since we still have them remaining, obviously many people can’t afford it. So what did we do? We gave them out free. This is how a lot of churches are able to survive today. a number of people in the church who by their conviction want to thank God for what He has done for them, usually come out to say let me do this, let me do that.
So when you see churches the way it is, it is not because everybody that goes there is able to afford something for that church to grow.
As I said, you don’t look at one or two rascals and conclude that everybody is like that. When some of us started preaching about 40 years ago, it was a taboo to give your daughter to a pastor. But what you have to understand is that 40 years is a long time. After 40 years as a journalist, shouldn’t there be a difference in your life? There should be. Some of us have come a long way to get to where we are. there are some people who agree that we have contributed to their lives and they blessed us.
So, please, don’t add churches as a thriving business in Nigeria, don’t do that because it insults the sensibility and sensitivity of some people. Let me repeat the fact that just because some people are doing some things that are not correct does not mean everybody is doing it. Just because there are counterfeit dollars, does that mean you won’t spend dollars again? Does that mean you don’t have the real one? Please, Christianity is genuine; there are many men or women of God who are preaching unadulterated gospel that is changing people’s lives as we speak.
As a man of God, what is it that will grieve your heart as to make you cry and have you ever cried as a pastor?
About one or two or three things, today as we speak, that grieves my heart and it is the killing of Christians in the north. It does not just grieve my mind, it breaks my heart because it is difficult for me to understand why anybody in the name of God will just be slaughtering human beings. People wonder why I speak the way I do; imagine the other day when a former governor, a two-time governor of Yobe State, Senator Bukar Abba Ibrahim, came out and said that not only should Federal Government dialogue with Boko Haram, if he had just said that, I would not be bothered because we have heard that several times. I would have just laughed it off, if he had stopped at that. But he went on to say that the reason why Boko Haram is here is because of neglect, injustice and inequality. In fact, he was saying this from his very Yobe State, a place called Piri.
People went for Christmas eve service at Piri; they were in church and lo and behold, they started killing them (suddenly, the pastor caves in to emotion, breaks down sobbing). What is this? They slaughtered them in tens. This is a man who was a governor of the same state. Why do we allow this in our country (sobbed profusely)? We should not allow this in our country, it is not right (sobs again). It is not right, I’m so sorry, but why? It is so sad.
Despite the avalanche of other men of God and Christian leaders, why are you seemingly the lone voice in the fight against the menace of Boko Haram?
Again, that is where you the media come in. Some of you in the media should ask questions. I should not be the one you should be asking. You should be asking other people why they are not talking. I’m talking because I feel what they feel. I’m a human being and I cannot sit by and watch these things happen like that. They break my heart.
There was a day, I was shown a video clip of the killing of Christians by Boko Haram. I broke down and started crying. They tied a young man’s hands behind his back and then cut off his head. I felt it and if anybody saw it and did not feel anything, that person shouldn’t be alive. Secondly, I am the President of the Christians Association of Nigeria and if nobody else says anything, I am not in the luxury of not saying anything because I was elected by Christians to lead and defend them. Part of the reason I was elected was to be a voice to the voiceless. If I keep quiet, then something is definitely wrong. I should resign because it must have come to a point where if I cannot do the job. The only option is to resign and go home. I am a pastor of Words of Life Bible Church. There is no Word of Life in the North. I might as well stay in my Warri base. I was elected to do a job. I cannot afford to sacrifice the lives of people on the altar of friendship.
Government seems to have failed on Boko Haram, while some people believe that prayers do not seem to have made the required impact. What is the way out?
I don’t want to say government has failed. Why did I say this? At least, you have seen that they have caught some suspects. They have done some things and we have seen some things they have done, but we are saying it is not enough. I will also tell you that prayers have not failed. Why did I say this? Now if with the prayers we have prayed we are where we are today, can you imagine what would have happened if we did not pray? It probably would have been worse than what we have today. God is supreme, God is sovereign and God is God. What makes God God is that He has the final say in all situations. If you read your Bible, you will remember the story of Elisha. Through Elisha, the Shunamite woman became pregnant and had a child in her old age. But as you study your Bible, you will find out that later that child died.
First of all, why would a miracle child die? Where was God? As I said, He is sovereign. The child died and the woman started searching for Elisha. Finally, the woman found him. Elisha confessed something. He said God hid this from me. So, why would God hide this from him? That is why He is God. There are some things you cannot question God about. That is why I said how Boko Haram will wind up, I don’t know. I know they will lose the war and the battle and they will lose it big time. I can tell you that prayer is working and it is working very well. That is why Nigeria will continue to survive and that is why Nigeria will continue to be Nigeria because of the payers that are going on. But government can do better than it is doing now.
