Category: Saturday Interview

Chief Tom Ikimi is a consummate architect and politician. He was elected first National Chairman of the defunct National Republican Convention (NRC), one of the two political parties in the botched third republic in 1990. Ikimi was Special Adviser to the late head of state, General Sani Abacha in February 1994 and later Foreign Affairs Minister from 1995 to July 1998. He was also a founding and Board of Trustees member of the then All Peoples Party (APP); and following his de-registeration from the PDP, Ikimi co-founded the Movement for the Restoration and Defence of Democracy (MRDD), a rallying platform on which the alleged third term bid of former President Olusegun Obasanjo was swiftly nipped in the bud. He spoke with Assistant Editor, LINUS OBOGO, on the rescue mission of the All Progressives Congress (APC); why INEC Chairman, Professor Atahiru Jega, must steer clear of the obvious minefield being laid in his path ahead of 2015. Excerpts:

 

There appears already, what could be regarded as a bump in the way of the yet to be registered All Progressives Congress (APC) with Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) claiming that some groups have approached it for registration with similar acronym, APC. Would you say this is a mere coincidence or part of what is now appearing like an attempt by the PDP – led government to frustrate the take off of your new party, the APC?

The emergence of the APC on February 6, 2013, when the Action Congress of Nigeria (ACN), the All Nigeria Peoples Party (ANPP), the Congress for Progressive Change (CPC) and a major section of the All Progressive Grand Alliance (APGA), decided to merge to form a mega alternative party in Nigeria has created a major stir in the Nigerian political firmament. The successful merger of such large opposition parties would instantly transform the country into a two major party state as is the case in other major successful democracies in the world. This prospect which serves notice of the end of tenure to the PDP, has shaken the very foundation of the PDP which over the past several years has operated across the country with reckless impunity. The option of a strong alternative party has been overwhelmingly welcomed by the generality of our people.

We are reliably informed of the roles of some highly placed persons in the establishment currently financing willing political jobbers and agents provocateurs whose assignment it is to cause mischief, precipitate chaos, mess up the democratic space in a manner reminiscent of the Arthur Nzeribe’s notorious Association for Better Nigeria (ABN) which in 1993 succeeded to irredeemably truncate the IBB transition programme.

Since February 6, 2013, when we addressed a World Press Conference announcing the decision of our parties to merge and adopted the name All Progressives Congress (APC), the name and acronym not only became our Intellectual Property but has since received very wide publicity in the print and electronic media. INEC has acknowledged this through its spokesperson several times in the press, received our correspondences on the matter long before some paid busy bodies approached it on February 28, some 22 days after we announced our name to seek the registration of the so-called African Peoples Congress.

I watched the shameful television display on Thursday evening of March 14 of a hired crowd, clearly recruited from nearby markets, streets and bushes, assembled in a first floor flat in a building in Apo Village – Abuja, hurriedly provided by their handlers, purporting to be the promoters of this charade. Nigeria, in my view, has moved away from this kind of disgraceful gimmicks well known to be associated with some of the expired barons of PDP now surviving on emergency heavy doses of Abuja oxygen. The revelations of the past couple of days provide irrefutable evidence that the series of fake APCs is a PDP official project. I certainly hope that Professor Atahiru Jega’s INEC would steer clear from this obvious minefield.

The process of merger is quite different from the procedure of registration of new parties. Merging parties being already registered political parties do not need to obtain and fill any forms! We are therefore diligently proceeding with the merger process. I understand that the young lawyer, one Nwokorie Samuel Chinedu, deceived and recruited to make the application to INEC, now bitterly regrets his role in the plot.

The so-called African People’s Congress has not scaled through the first basic hurdle for registration as a political party and has no place in the prevailing political atmosphere when more serious groups are being deregistered. The show of shame they put up that Thursday brandishing forged INEC documents is serious enough for our nation’s security agencies to descend on these criminals and save our country from further corruption of the democratic process.

What could anyone be afraid of about a group that is yet to be registered as a party which seems to be causing the PDP or its agents and government insomnia to the level of frenzied desperation by the government in power?

Since 1999 when the departing military government officially installed General Obasanjo and the PDP, OBJ who was the beneficiary, proceeded to decimate the opposition with the sole purpose of establishing a one-party state. I happened to have been a founding member of the APP and one of the main reasons I left the party was because I could not understand how and why after the bitterly fought general election, our National Chairman, the late Mahmoud Waziri, would abandon his party with nine state governors to take office as Political Adviser in the government that defeated him. OBJ who successfully lured him in order to weaken the APP, went further to organise the registration of over 60 other parties to be in the opposition, most of them not worth more than their registration certificates. A good number of them were, for a small fee, always willing to play one role or the other for the PDP against the opposition. The role they played was always crucial in ensuring the perpetuation in power of the PDP.

For the past several years, desperate efforts have been made by concerned members of the opposition to unify the opposition parties in order, not only to provide an alternative viable platform for Nigerians but to make the PDP more accountable. Those efforts failed for various reasons, including personality interests, PDP’s successful manipulations, the activities of moles and bad timing. It is now, however, clear to the PDP and the establishment that our current effort is well calculated, being systematically well pursued in the national interest and backed by the overwhelming people’s support, pointing towards the inevitable change of baton which many of them have difficulty in contemplating. That is their fear. The PDP has held the country hostage and plundered it since 1999. They have ruled with impunity, established massive corruption as a way of life and so the fear of stepping down is real. One of their past National Chairmen openly boasted that the PDP was to rule Nigeria for one whole century. Those at the helm of affairs today believe that nonsense and so are operating recklessly. The day to account for their stewardship is knocking at the door!

The parties coming together to form a merger have been rather focused on ousting the PDP from power. But beyond that, what is likely to change after you would have succeeded in banishing the party from power?

In 2006 I was among the 23 leaders who broke away from the PDP on the same day to link up with some others from the AD to found the ACN. Some of my colleagues who left with me then included the late Abubakar Rimi, Chief Audu Ogbeh, Gali Na’aba, Alhaji Lawal Keita etc. I went down to Edo State in 2006 to link up with a number of others to establish the ACN there. I dare say we have been successful in uprooting the PDP, which ran that state aground. Edo State happens to be the home of some of their most boastful leaders. We established there an ACN government that has been highly successful. The first ACN government in the country was that of His Excellency, Governor Babatunde Fashola of Lagos State whose brilliant performance has been a benchmark in the country. His colleagues of other ACN states refer to him as class prefect. In summary, the present governors of the opposition are progressives who are leading progressive governments with clearly distinctive achievements. A change of baton at the centre and the enthronement of a liberal democracy with clear vision would ensure the positive refocusing of our nation state.

The APC will be a totally new party. The first draft of the Constitution and Manifesto has just been presented for our discussion and vetting. Among other things, the Constitution will establish an acceptable level of party supremacy, will ensure the creation of a broad-based political party whose membership will cut across all strata of our society permitting equality of membership of all Nigerians willing to join and who will enjoy the full measure of internal party democracy. A transparent method of congresses and conventions will open up the democratic space for all to aspire to any level of their God’s given personal ability. The enthronement of discipline in our society must commence from our party and so proper safeguards for discipline is being enshrined in our new constitution with a guarantee for adequate access to justice by all members without prejudice. Confidence in politicians and the political system needs to be urgently restored.

A detailed and robust manifesto will soon be published which will guide all our governments from local government to the Federal Government. We will not entertain ridiculous jokes of personal point agendas by any head of government at any level. They must all faithfully execute the party manifesto which constitutes the solemn pact that we make with our people who vote us into power. Consequently the party will subject its various executives from the local government to the presidency to regular periodic open conferences to discuss their performance and compliance with our manifesto. In this regard, our core commitments to education, eradication of corruption, uninterrupted power supply, full and gainful employment, affordable local fuel price, health care delivery, abundant food supply, industrial growth, efficient transportation, housing etc. will be watched closely by the party. This process does not exist in the PDP that has “captured” Nigeria for the past 14 years!

Unfortunately, what we have witnessed in these past 14 years is the enthronement of monumental corruption at the very highest level of government. Today, people of questionable character are celebrated with National Awards while a few who are unfortunate to be convicted are granted state pardon. That is the level to which Nigeria has descended.

Critics of the APC insist that there is nothing new in the convergence of those behind the party, maintaining that it is same of the same, a conclave of power-hungry people merely angling for a piece of the action. How right are they?

Nothing can be farther from the truth. I already drew your attention to the sterling qualities of the governors of the states controlled by the opposition parties; I have also given you an insight into the painstaking processes that have gone into the production of the party Constitution and Manifesto. What we offer Nigerians is a blueprint that is borne out of a clear vision with the will to drive the process by the enthronement of a focused and well grounded government as against the clueless and visionless apology now offered by the PDP.

Frankly, the situation in our country must not be allowed to get worse than it is today. National infrastructure has suffered a calamity of a colossal decay which includes the disastrous condition of the roads, a demise of the railway system, virtually non- existent power supply; the health care system has so deteriorated that plane loads of Nigerians depart every day to far away India and other similar destinations to seek basic healthcare. The issue of insecurity has gripped the country and thrown 155 million citizens into perpetual fear, while unbridled corruption has brought the nation to its knees. The once pleasant environment enjoyed just before and after Independence has vanished! Millions of Nigerian youths are jobless while the educational system, where available, is receding into the Stone Age level, forcing those who could afford it to send their children to Ghana and other neighbouring countries or elsewhere to seek higher quality education. The anxiety for change across the country is palpable to such an extent that everywhere one turns today, there is an overwhelming yearning for a rescue mission.

There has never been a political party merger in any form in our country’s history. This is the first of its kind. Apart from the four parties advertised as those now in the merger arrangement, there are several other parties as well as groups, civil society organisations and individuals who have freely approached us to join the merger. We are definitely on an urgent rescue mission. So far, I have heard not a whisper from any individual in the merger arrangement suggesting any personal interest in one position or the other. I am convinced that it will not be business as usual

There have been calls for the granting of amnesty for the violent Islamic sect, the Boko Haram, regarded as a faceless group. As former Foreign Affairs Minister, would you advise the government to negotiate with a group likened to terrorists and is the amnesty call in sync?

The activities of Boko Haram have turned out to be one of the most serious security problems in the country today. It has been responsible for the loss of hundreds of innocent lives in parts of the country, including the Federal Capital, Abuja and its environs. One of my saddest days was the Christmas day bombing of a Catholic Church! Apart from rendering some states in the northern part of Nigeria, particularly Bornu and Yobe states, virtually no go areas, the Boko Haram insurgency has portrayed our country to the world as an unsafe destination for tourists and business people. Anyone fortunate to be the ultimate leader in the country must see it as a priority to find a lasting solution to the security situation. I have heard that some reckless individuals in the corridor of power utter careless comments to the effect that Boko Haram is a northern problem which should be left to the northerners to solve. The problem has not only advanced to the Federal Capital but is creeping southwards with vigour. Even if it has not crept down south yet, is the North not part of Nigeria? It was indeed a welcome development that the President decided to pay a visit to Yobe and Bornu two weeks ago after the Progressive Governors’ visit. His visit was the first since 2009 when the problem began. There are several examples of such insurgency problem that has occurred in other parts of the world from which those who advise Mr President can draw lessons.

I recall the RUF, Revolution United Front that foisted terror on Sierra Leone during my time as Foreign Minister. Its leader, Foday Sanko took refuge with his faceless terrorists in the deep jungle of Sierra Leone. We approached the resolution of the menace by a method of the carrot and stick. Eventually we persuaded Foday Sankor to come out and we brought him to Abuja. Negotiations became more effective. I believe the Foreign Ministry has good records.

The Sultan of Sokoto’s call for amnesty for Boko Haram should not be disregarded or taken lightly. The sultan’s high standing in the country, particularly in Northern Nigeria and in Islam supports this view. He must be in custody of information that could be helpful in the direction of his suggestion. The security agencies have in their custody several individuals they have arrested as the sect members. OBJ visited Bornu State sometime back and had discussions with persons reported to be leaders of the sect. The press has published photographs of various individuals named as Boko Haram leaders. The immediate past governor of Bornu State is reported to have had some interaction with the sect during his tenure. I am therefore a bit concerned with the President’s statement during his recent visit in Bornu State declaring that he was not prepared to engage “ghosts”. As it was possible to send high level contacts to the creeks in the Niger Delta to engage the militants there, I believe a similar engagement with Boko Haram is possible and necessary.

What do you make of the recent statement by the former Head of State, General Ibrahim Babangida to the effect that Obasanjo’s 1999 presidency saved Nigeria from break-up?

It is not unusual for leaders to sit down from time to time and in their quiet moments, reflect and look at matters with hindsight. Sometimes, they may beat their chest with a satisfying smile for their past actions, but it is not unusual for them to harbour some regrets. It is a well known fact that General Ibrahim Babangida was one of the authors of Obasanjo’s 1999 candidacy and ascendance to the presidency. Only IBB can testify today whether or not his decision was the right one. It is also a fact that the poor handling of the events leading to the June 12, 1993 presidential elections as well as its aftermath are issues that should engage IBB’s reflection for a long time to come. There are many things I dare say he should have done differently. The reaction of South West Nigeria to those events in the aftermath of June 12, particularly their various political wings including the very powerful National Democratic Coalition (NADECO), needed an appropriate response. Following devine intervention, IBB, aided by a handful of others, seized the moment and chose a former military colleague from the South West. Nigeria would not have broken up as the South West leaders know the history of “Biafra”, but Nigeria would have been in continuous political stress. General Obasanjo was not a South-West’s choice, with the loss of his ward in the elections, but being a Yoruba man, the general temperature in that region was substantially brought down with his ascendancy to the presidency. That high temperature has now shifted to another region.

Even though Nigeria did not break up then, is the country not much worse and almost heading for a break up now than the period IBB spoke about, given the current charged political atmosphere?

IBB and most of the core individuals who plotted and executed the coronation of OBJ lost control of the man almost as soon as he ascended the presidency in1999. The PDP became more or less OBJ’s private property and he was responsible for initiating the aberration that the President was the leader of the party. The independence of the political party has since been compromised. OBJ, having failed to secure a third term presidency, and being the anointed head of the ruling party, he proceeded to interfere with the internal party democratic process for selecting his successor which led to the emergence of the late President Umaru Yar Aduah and eventually President Goodluck Jonathan. Needless to say, the outcome of all that is the unbearable heat pervading the nation today. All that might have taken a back burner if the government now in power was performing well. But that is clearly not the case. Consequently, we are now in a situation in which the agitation for change has become nationwide. The PDP has displayed a total lack of consistency in its affairs and seems to have no qualms in moving the goal post in serious decisions left, right and centre all the time. The revelation by the Governor of Niger State which he holds tenaciously to, that an agreement exists between the PDP Governors and President Jonathan to end his presidency in 2015 is a case in point. That seems to re-enforce the Northern claim to the next presidency within the PDP.

A lot of people have tended to blame the woes of the country on the challenge of leadership. How would you compare the leadership under the late head of state, General Sani Abacha and the subsequent ones that followed after?

I am not an apostle of military governments, but General Gowon, perhaps the longest serving military ruler is very well regarded in the country today. One can safely say that the regime of military rulers pervaded Africa in the 70’s, 80’s and early 90’s. Nigeria had its fair share. Military rule is no longer elegant or fashionable. The entry of General Sani Abacha immediately after June 12 and the shaky regime of Chief Ernest Shonnekan was bound to face unprecedented difficulties. While I am not discussing the Abacha regime in this response, I must state that the man was a courageous leader who addressed the nation’s problems astutely. Unfortunately, the man is not around now like some others to answer for himself. There are many who have paraded themselves as democrats and held juicy positions over the past 14 years of PDP rule, but were inside the engine room of the Abacha administration.

The highest amount received per barrel for crude oil during Abacha’s regime was $8, but our currency was strong and a lot of projects were executed around the country. The highly successful PTF – Petroleum Trust Fund – established by the retention of a few kobos per barrel of crude produced carried out notable projects nationwide. During his tenure, I know that not a kobo was borrowed from the IMF or World bank. Those institutions shut down their offices in Abuja. However, in 1999, General Obasanjo, a former military ruler, assumed the presidency and preferred that his name be disguised as he was to be referred to as Chief Obasanjo. He was a lucky President. The price per barrel of crude oil soared from the paltry $8 per barrel only one year before his arrival to an unprecedented over $100 per barrel. That was the real windfall which was and is continually being fritted away. The PDP has since established a system of annual budgeting that grants nearly 80% of such colossal sums, now in trillions, of our annual budget to recurrent expenditures with virtually nothing left to capital development.

We have a staff of the “Brentton Woods” institution firmly in charge and supervising what is perhaps the worst scenario of corruption Nigeria has ever been subjected to; the same woman who lured Nigeria to pay up billions of dollars on questionable and unverified debts is now leading us back to incur even bigger debts without any visible development projects to show for it. Many people have wondered whose interest she will most serve; Nigeria’s or the World Bank’s?

Edo State is today said to be experiencing what could be described as participatory democracy as a result of Governor Adams Oshiomhole’s one man one vote initiative. Could this be the final death knell on the coffin of the politics of godfatherism which held the people of Edo State captive for years?

It is my fervent hope that the choice of people to hold power in our country at all levels would be based on the will of the people. As National Chairman of the NRC in 1990 to 1992, our contest with the defunct Social Democratic Party (SDP) was based largely on the outcome of free and fair elections. Hence we ran neck and neck all the time. My quest for a mega party today is to create another party that will contest against the PDP to ensure true competition and balance in the polity. Checks and balances would then be assured. Between the NRC and SDP, of the 30 states in the country then, we in the NRC won 16 governorships and the SDP won 14. But the SDP secured more seats in the National Assembly election. Both parties accepted the outcome of the elections without quarrel and I cannot recall any court cases. I can very well appreciate the former head of state, Gen Ibrahim Babangida recalling those good old days.

The colossal investment of mind boggling cash utilised in elections these days is a phenomenon introduced by the PDP and they have succeeded in corrupting the electoral commission as well down the line. The general elections in 2007 have been recorded as the worst ever in our country’s history. Prof. Atahiru Jega is trying to make a difference but he still has a number of hardened bad eggs in his system. Steps must be taken to rid the place of those characters ahead of the next general elections. Today, elections are no longer decided at the polling stations. Final decisions have shifted to the law courts which development has unleashed new and scary problems on the country with regards to our nation’s Judiciary. Lawyers have become as well so fabulously wealthy.

Comrade Oshiomhole’s launch of the one man one vote concept was very timely. It brought back confidence in the ballot box and it was a relief to hear President Goodluck Jonathan mount the campaign rostrum in Benin City and also proclaimed one man one vote. A celebrated PDP baron made absolute nonsense of the ballot box. Those who wanted office, rather than campaign to the people for votes made nocturnal pilgrimages to the residence of the baron. Governors, legislators, council chairmen and councillors hold office at his behest and so, their hands were usually tied when the time came to deliver to the people the much talked about dividends of democracy.

There must, however, be leadership in political parties to give direction to elected personnel during their tenure in their operations without prejudice to them retaining a reasonable level of free hand.

The people of Edo State have comprehensively rejected PDP since 2007 and from November 2009, when the ACN government was inaugurated, the participatory democracy that you speak of has actually bred real and visible developments in the state. This is largely because unlike what we found during the PDP, when recurrent expenditure gulped almost 90% of the total receipts, leaving virtually nothing for development, the economy has been effectively restructured to ensure that not less than 50% of total receipts are committed to capital development in a manner that is accountable and transparent. The end result is that Edo State has fully realised value for money spent. This type of vision, focus, fiscal discipline and commitment is what we will offer Nigerians when in 2015 they reject PDP and embrace the fresh air of change that APC represents.

 

Senator Mahmud Kanti Bello represented Katsina North Senatorial Zone from 2003 to 2011. Known for his bluntness, he had caused a stir in the senate during the ministerial screening when he accused former Information Minister Dora Akunyili of cooking for ex-First Lady Hajia Turai Yar’Adua. Recently, he had sensationally debunked the claims of the Niger State Governor Babangida Aliyu of a purported pact President Goodluck Jonathan signed with the governors of the PDP over 2015 presidency.

In this interview with Assistant Editor, LINUS OBOGO, Kanti Bello spoke on what he described as Jonathan’s leadership ineptitude, why Nigerians should rally round the emerging All Progressive Congress to get the country out of the woods.

Excerpts:

You left the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) for the Congress for Progressive Change (CPC). What informed your movement at this time, especially when your political acumen would have been most needed by the party?

I came to realise the situation in which Nigeria has found herself and which is that there is no focus in the management of the affairs of the country. As a politician, I play my politics based on principles. From the perspective of the part of the country where I come from, I had gotten tired of having to look at the papers everyday and all I find is that this much has been stolen and that much has been looted from the national treasury and no action is being taken to put a stop to it by the leadership provided by the PDP.

I have also discovered that corruption at the national level is on the highest scale under the PDP. As a patriotic Nigerian, I feel I must not allow myself or the name of my family to be associated with this kind of mess. That was my first consideration. Secondly, I earnestly want to contribute my quota to the development of my country and it is a disaster that under the PDP government, all the industries in the North are no more. All the textile industries that were based in Kano, Kaduna, Kaukuri are all gone today and our people have become poorer with the coming of the PDP government in 1999.

Much more disturbing also, is the security challenge in the country. No country can prosper without security. The security situation in the North is so terrible that nobody feels safe any longer. Not even during the civil war did we witness what we are today experiencing. It is sad that we cannot boast of security of lives and property, not only in the North, but all across the country. It is against this backdrop that I felt that to make a positive contribution to change Nigeria I needed to leave the PDP. That is one of the reasons I had to leave the PDP to join the CPC with the hope of helping General Muhammadu Buhari so that we can, at least do something to salvage the situation in the interest of the future of our children and grandchildren.

Any right thinking Nigerian should think of the future of this country and leave PDP to join the CPC and the emerging APC to rescue it, otherwise, it will sink irretrievably.

You said you left the PDP as a result of the inability of the party to tackle what you described as security challenge and sundry conundrums confronting the country. Are these challenges caused by the party or the political leadership?

It is about the party which is in control of the government at the centre. And as a party in government, it is a complete failure. The crisis in the country, occasioned by the PDP government is not one in which you can fight as member by staying put in the party. The party is corrupt, inept and completely directionless.

Those ruling on the platform of the party do not even know what they are doing. For instance, the governor of my state, Katsina, has turned himself into a little emperor. How do you explain a situation in which the governor of a state would take public funds and build a house for a woman in Niger Republic? It is inexplicable that this happened in a state rated as the second poorest in the country. It is even sadder that the governor does not listen to anybody in the state.

Senator, can you substantiate your claim that he actually used public funds to build a house for a woman in Niger Republic?

It is on record. The story was carried in The Leadership as an advertorial. I am not speculating about Governor Shema of Katsina State building a house for a woman in Niger Republic. I am too old, too gentle and so well known to speculate and tell lies about somebody. Why should I? Whatever I say to the media, I must have read or heard it from an authentic source. I am not daft and I am not the kind of politician that just wants to create sensation.

So, with this kind of leadership at the federal and state level, my dear friend, we just have to change the system. It is that bad that Nigerians are being held by the jugular and what is required is for all right thinking Nigerians to rescue the country from their clutches. That is the situation we are at the moment.

You were part of the system between 2003 and 2011 as a senator of the Federal Republic of Nigeria where even the legislative arm was also alleged to be neck deep in endemic corruption. What did you do and how come you did not leave the PDP at the time?

I want to first of all make it clear that I was not in the PDP as a senator in 2003. Rather, I was in the All Nigeria Peoples Party (ANPP). Let me say this with all sense of modesty that it was while I was in the ANPP that I went out of my way to beg General Buhari to come into politics because Nigeria needs a radical leader like him to undergo a radical transformation. So, some of us felt that the only person that could bring about that change was Buhari. The endemic corruption has got to stop. This requires someone who is untainted to achieve that and Buhari remains that person.

But incidentally, my friend, brother and political associate, the late President Umaru Musa Yar’Adua had approached me and told me to come and join him in the PDP because he was running for the Presidency. He said he needed a senator with experience to assist him move this country forward. I saw that he had good intentions for the country, so I obliged him. He was a good man and he had good intentions, but unfortunately, his health challenge took a better of him. However, he was great leader. He was one of the best presidents this country has ever produced.

So, it was the late president that actually brought me into the PDP, and as a nationalist and realist, I heeded his invitation. That was how I joined the PDP. But as a man who believes in the rule of law, I felt that something had gone wrong when the PDP constitution prescribed zoning in the party, and it had to be abandoned. I came out and told Goodluck Jonathan that he could not contest because the ticket was still zoned to the North, not minding that the bearer of the ticket was dead.

As far as I was concerned, the PDP constitution was very clear on zoning. So it was the turn of the North. Even though I was the Chief Whip of the Senate and a member of the national caucus at the time, I was not deceived that it was still the turn of the North and that was why I yielded myself as the national deputy campaign coordinator for General Ibrahim Babangida (rtd). I believe fervently in the principle of rotation.

Unfortunately, those who were not patriotic like the governors turned round and rooted for Jonathan, even though they knew he was not supposed to stand for the presidency on the platform of the PDP. Going by the party’s constitution, they knew that it was constitutionally wrong to have allowed him to contest. Rather than tell him ‘Mr. President, you could run in 2015 after the North must have completed its turn at the presidency’.

If they had taken this stance, their action would have made the party credible. But they chose, rather, to play the ostrich. I tried as much as I could to convince the governors during one of the meetings that it was not right to allow Jonathan to run, but instead, they all queued up behind him.

Now that it is affecting them, they are trying to tell Nigerians that President Jonathan signed a pact with them not to contest in 2015. But as far as I can remember, there was no such pact. The question I am asking them is why didn’t they challenge him when he was contesting in 2011?

It was on the basis of this inconsistency that I decide to leave PDP for the CPC. I felt it was time I left the party, something I had done six months ago.

Considering the sheer size of the PDP in our party politics today, would you say you made the best and an informed decision leaving the party?

I am an old man and at my age, there is no decision I make today that I will ever live to regret tomorrow. I graduated from the university 41 years ago as an engineer and so, I am enlightened enough to know the implications of every decision I make in life. At my age also, if I take a decision, it should not necessarily be in my best interest, but in the best interest of my nation. I have been in the public service for the past 41 years. I believe in every decision and action I may have taken to be in the best interest of this country.

How would you assess governance under President Jonathan from when he became President of Nigeria after Yar’Adua’s death till date?

I cannot point to anything he has achieved as President. There is absolutely nothing to place a finger on. The only achievement that can be credited to him is that we have progressed from bad to worse. Look at the insecurity in the country, each time the President says he is on top of the situation, we will witness attacks of fatal proportion. The North was not known to be a region of kidnappers, but now we are deep in it. If a whole Emir could come close to being butchered on the street, what does that say about the state of security in the country? We are in a terrible mess.

On the issue of corruption, how on earth can we justify the level it has assumed? Take the case of the pension fund, for instance, when the Senate cried itself hoarse that Abdulrasheed Maina should be produced, the IG of police played games with the issue until the man escaped outside the country right under the nose of the IG. There was a time the Presidency was quoted to have said that it had no power to dismiss him. They said it was only the Head of Service that could dismiss him. This game continued for about six months until they paved the way for him to escape. Is that a good leadership scorecard? No.

If the Senate can be courageous enough, it should insist on the President producing the Chairman of the Pension Fund, Maina, failing which an impeachment process be commenced against him. From the drama that played out, leading to his eventual disappearance from the country, amounts to an impeachable offence. The amount involved is too colossal to be waved aside. Besides, it is billions of naira of people’s life’s savings that was mismanaged by just a few people in government. It is a national shame and embarrassment. In any case, I do not expect much from the scandal. After all, that is what the PDP is all about.

Virtually everyone seems to be heaping the problems of Nigeria on President Jonathan, so much so that today, if a man cannot get his wife pregnant, it is blamed on Jonathan. Did the problems he is being pilloried predate him as President? Or did the problems emanate during his time in office?

Look, if the problems of Nigeria started with former President Olusegun Obasanjo, in 1999 because of lack of progress under his watch, Jonathan has done nothing to improve the situation. Rather, he has escalated them. If Nigerians were not the kind of peace loving people that they are, what Jonathan has been doing would have long created a religious violence in the country.

How do you reconcile yourself with a President whose every policy statement is usually announced in the church? Is that how to run a country in a pluralistic society? It is even being alleged that he is concentrating his energy on helping only people from his Bayelsa State. Is that how governance is run? I have read this in the papers.

Nobody should mistake my position as hatred for President Jonathan. I do not have anything personal against him. But the fact remains that I love Nigeria. I just do not like the way he running the country and I think I am old enough not to say it.

 What do you think is the way out? Should he vacate the presidency so that Nigeria can make progress?

Change the PDP and change the government. That is all. The PDP has become a system of government today in Nigeria. The party has become something of a cult. Governors are being muscled and they can no longer talk. Some of the governors have become sycophants in government.

The PDP has become Nigerians’ headache and the only cure is to attack it with APC. That is what is known to cure headache. I want to urge Nigerians to be discernible enough to swallow APC in order to get relief. We must come together to kick out the PDP which has lost it identity as a party and become a system of government. It is a system of government of the crooks, run by the crooks and benefited only by the crooks. We have to kick them out. That is why we are calling on all patriotic Nigerians including you the journalists to come on board to kick the PDP out.

It is being alleged that President Jonathan signed a pact with the PDP governors in 2011 that he will not run in 2015 and you were quoted to have punctured their claim. You were not a governor, so how could you claim to be privy to whether or not such a deal was ever struck by a group of governors? Besides, should Jonathan not run in 2015?

I really do not care whether Jonathan runs in 2015 or not run. But all I know is that from the meeting I attended when the governors met with him, there was nothing like that. And if there was anything like that, then they should prove it to Nigerians that Jonathan signed a pact with them. But as far as I know, there is no fact in their claim.

The issue now is not whether Jonathan runs or not but that whoever runs on the platform of the PDP and wins, he should not be allowed to form a government. That is all. Does it not make sense to you that we just must stop PDP at all costs? The truth of the matter is that we must kick out whoever that will rule this country on the PDP platform. Is that understood?

But how do you intend to kick out a party believed to be the largest on the continent and more national in outlook?

My friend, they are the largest crooks today, yes I agree. Nigeria being ruled by the largest party is the largest most corrupt country in the world today. But is this what Nigerians want? Nigerians are tired and no longer care about size. What we care now is the morality, how to make the country great so that Nigerians can live in peace.

Is it because it is the largest party that I should not have security? Is it because they constitute the so called largest party that I should be afraid to travel from my village to Abuja? I am not even sure that sleeping in my own house now is safe. Is that what being the largest party is all about? Is that why US$2.6 billion of oil subsidy money should be missing? My friend, let Nigerians get serious for once and come together to fix this country and the only way to achieve this is to chase the largest party of crooks out of Aso Rock.

The menace of the Boko Haram sect has continued to threaten the existence of the country and much worse, crippled the economy of the North. What is it that the leadership has not done right to tackle the menace?

The crisis of Boko Haram is simple only if we had a serious government. If a group of people is bombing and butchering their fellow human beings on the street, they must have an agenda for doing that. What is it that they want? I do not think that any sensible human being will just wake up and for no reason, go on a killing spree. There must be a motive. It is the responsibility of a responsible government in power to try and find out what is it they want. At the beginning of the crisis of the Boko Haram, I remember advising that the government should try and find out what was it they wanted and what were their grudges?

Having found out what they want, the government should know what is in the best interest of our nation and do what is right for the country. If a whole Commander-in-Chief of Nigeria cannot travel to Maiduguri or anywhere in the North, because he is afraid, what type of commander-in-chief is that? He has refused to visit any part of the North because he is afraid. With that type man as our Commander-in-Chief, who will save Nigeria? As Commander-in-Chief, he has the entire security apparatus at his disposal.

On the ongoing merger talks with your party, the CPC and others, some Nigerians have expressed cynicism that since merger has never worked in the past, this one might not be different. What is your reaction to this?

Nigerians are a very funny people. They are talking about the people in the merger talks having different or no ideology. What ideology are they talking about anyway? We already have an ideology given to us by President Jonathan. One of the ideologies is that we have to stop people from stealing public fund. There is also the ideology that corruption must be stopped. We have to provide security to Nigerians. Is this also not an ideology? We must ensure that our industries are resuscitated and our energy boosted to generate electricity. So, what ideology are they talking about? The failure of President Jonathan and his PDP government has provided us an ideology to chart a course for good governance for the country.

When a country of about 160 million people cannot even clothe its citizens until we import cloths from India and China, then something is fundamentally wrong somewhere. This is an ideology. There is need to overhaul our educational system and make sure that our children get the best of education in Nigeria. Is that not an ideology? The ineptitude of President Jonathan has offered us an ideology. Nigerians are craving for a change. They are not asking for communism, socialism or capitalism. Rather, they are asking for quality life, quality education, healthcare, shelter, electricity, good roads and security. I believe that this has nothing to do with the system of government being operated.

Those talking about APC having no ideology do not know what they are talking about. What they do not seem to know is that Jonathan has already given us an ideology. Nigerians want economic prosperity and that is an ideology.

How optimistic are you about the merger?

The optimism is not something you promise or offer people. But if you are living in Nigeria, you will be able to see the optimism in virtually everyone who has gotten weary of the listlessness of the Jonathan-led PDP government. The optimism is very much palpable in every right thinking Nigerian living in Nigeria. Maybe because you live in Lagos, you may not know what is happening in this country. Who is that Nigerian that does not desire a change? Is it a good thing to hear that PhD holders are queuing up to drive Dangote trucks? My friend, Nigerians are suffering. Is that what our graduates have been reduced to? As a fine journalist that you are, I want to personally appeal to you that you also have a role to play by joining forces to help change this country.

While you were in the senate, you accused former Information Minister, during the ministerial screening of cooking for the wife of late President Yar’Adua, Hajia Turai. Did you merely say that to humiliate her or you said what you knew her to be doing then?

(Cuts in amidst prolong laughter) well, I really would have wished not to go into that again. It is all in the past now. But having said that, I wish to also state that I did not say it to humiliate her. What I said was about three or four years ago. Those who know me know that whenever I talk, I talk based on fact and not on hear say. What I tried to do with Professor Dora Akunyili then was to let her know that what she was doing was bad. She was pact of the system and as such, it was not right for her to have come out to label some people as cabal or kitchen cabinet who held the late president hostage.

She was always with the first family and as such, she was among those that could be regarded as first among equal. She was part of the kitchen cabinet where things were being cooked by virtue of her closeness to the first family.

I wanted to let Nigerians know that people like Akunyili are not to be trusted. She did not tell Nigerians what was going on when Yar’Adua was alive and when things were not going right. So, she should have remained reticent when Yar’Adua was away. It was not right to discuss the team when she was part of the team.

What role are we expecting to see Senator Bello to play in the next dispensation?

I will play the role the Katsina people want me to play. And I will continue to play the role of rebuilding my country, Nigeria. I will do my best to ensure that this country is united so that we can kick out the PDP.

Governor Emmanuel Uduaghan of Delta State stepped out with little or no fanfare to usher the journalists into his expansive and freshly furnished living room in the just completed sprawling Government House complex in Asaba, the state capital. He was dressed simply in T-shirt, a pair of trousers and casual shoes. Of average height, he had a soothing unintimidating presence. He spoke in soft but clear, audible voice to attend to all the questions thrown at him in the course of the engaging interview with DELE ADEOSUN and TAIWO OGUNDIPE. Now spending his sixth year in the saddle, he went into the depth of his being to explain the steps he has taken so far in tackling the challenging issues of his state.

AFTER six years in the saddle, can you relate your experience, what it has been like governing a state that is multi-ethnic arranged like Delta State? It’s been quite challenging, it’s been quite interesting. I’ve also learnt a lot from governing this state. I have virtually lived my life in the geographical entity called Delta apart from when I attended university for my post-graduate course. Every other thing, from primary school to secondary school, to my working life, had been virtually lived in this entity. But I think the period in which I’ve been the governor, I’ve come to know the state more than the previous years I had lived in the state. Regarding the issue of ethnicity, before I came in, we had a lot of ethnic challenges that even led to inter-ethnic crisis with fighting, especially before my predecessor came in and while he was there. Even before some of us were born, the challenges had been there. My predecessor tried to manage it while he was there as much as possible. When I came in it was still there. We still had inter-ethnic challenges. And in fact, my emergence was a sort of a big surprise in terms of ethnicity considering the fact that I’m an Itshekiri, one of the smallest ethnic groups. And an ethnic group that has been in crisis with big ethnic groups like the Urhobos and the Ijaws. However, by God’s grace, my emergence sort of went on to improve ethnic family’s relationship in the state. What I’ve tried to do is to as much as possible give to each ethnic group what is due to it in terms of appointment, spread of developmental issues, whether infrastructure or human capital. And I think that has gone a long way in dousing the ethnic tension that was in the state. So there is no ethnic group that would say this other ethnic group has cheated us or I’m not getting this because of another ethnic group. There is no doubt that you still have people who are talking on ethnic basis but those are just people that are few and far in between; people that want to create political tension, or people that want to draw personal attention to themselves, and are still living in the old era of throwing up ethnic issues. Most of the things we do are not ethnicbased. They are developmental programmes that you cannot say were driven because of this ethnic group. An Asaba airport, for instance, is not for the people in Asaba alone or for the Delta North people alone, it’s for the whole state. When you land in Asaba airport you can move to any part of the state. So, these are things I’ve had to do. Again, it has been challenging and interesting but I think we are winning on ethnic issues. Apart from the ethnic issue, the other challenge was that of youth restiveness and militancy. How were you able to manage this? My strategy was that of engagement on one side, then law and order on the other side. The law and order bit was about an outfit, the Joint Task Force (JTF), set up by the Federal Government, which had the army, the police, the air force, the navy, the SSS in this area that was maintaining law and order. But for me as a governor, what was more important is the engagement. First of all, these guys were fighting for a reason – developmental reason. They felt marginalised; they felt cheated both by governments – local government, state government and federal government as well as the oil companies. The thing was to ensure that some of the things they were fighting for were dealt with. I brought a lot of them into government. Many people hated me for it. They didn’t like that I was bringing militants into government. But I said these are people who had stopped whatever they were doing. They had stopped fighting one another. They had embraced peace. They are qualified to occupy whatever positions they were being given. My bringing them into them helped a lot. We formed what we call the Delta Waterways Security Committee. They are mainly youths from the area, who understand the complexities of living in this area; who were also leaders or parts of the crisis at its peak; who had access to the very grassroots, some of the youths that were carrying guns. So they were dealing with people that were mainly on the field. They could go to any part of the state no matter how far it is and no matter how dangerous the place is, to talk to them, engage with them, telling them, ‘Look, this thing you are doing is okay, come let us embrace peace, let us engage government,’ letting them know what we want. And let us see how far they can go. So, that helped. And we also have this outfit called Delta State Oil Area Development Commission (DESOPADEC), which we gave 50 percent of our 30 percent derivation every month. And it comprised people from those areas that understand the areas and their needs. There is no doubt they had challenges because when that kind of money comes in for the first time into that kind of body, there are bound to be challenges. But the body has stabilised now and is going forward. It is a body that will do a lot in developing these oilproducing areas. So, that engagement process and law and order helped us to deal with the crisis. This seems to suggest that your government had introduced the idea of amnesty before the Federal Government launched its own? Yes, if you say so. I believe in amnesty. And I’m one of those who lobbied seriously for it. Let’s come to think of it, these are our own children, our own younger brothers, our own younger sisters who carried out (the agitation) for a reason and also agreed to drop their arms if some of those issues that caused their carrying arms were met. Those were issues that we as Federal Government, state government and local government, and even the oil-producing companies, can deal with. So, we should play our part while they play their own part. So, as for amnesty, I believe very strongly in it. I was part of those that lobbied for it. I believe we should continue to develop it because Northern Ireland today has become a country that is surviving through amnesty. The people that actually brought the peace to Northern Ireland were those who were part of the crisis. I took some of these young boys to Northern Ireland to understudy what was happening there. They were there for over two weeks. The people that talked to them were in the forefront of making peace there. They were the ones who were bombing houses and killing people. They turned round to embrace peace. You have been in the saddle for six years. What have been the high points of your administration? The high points are in various areas. One is ensuring that there is peace in the area, and ensuring that there is security. In-between, we’ve had security challenges because when the militancy was over, it brought out its challenges of security issues: The challenges of kidnapping; the challenges of illegal bunkering; the challenges of piracy. Of course, kidnapping is a brother and sister to armed robbery. Those are the challenges that came up. They are the challenges we are dealing with. I cannot go into details because they are security issues. But we are doing a lot. There is no doubt that of late we’ve had some cases of kidnapping not just because of the guns that were left behind from the militancy period. We are also now having political kidnapping, which some people in opposition are organising; kidnapping against relations of and even people in top government positions. In fact, one of the last ones, which I would call international kidnapping, was the mother of the minister of finance. You’ve heard from the minister herself that her mother was kidnapped because of her own actions as a minster of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. So, we have all those challenges but we are also dealing with them. And I can say there is drastic reduction because we are arresting some of the kidnappers. In this state we’ve had the highest number of kidnappers being sentenced to jail, especially in the last three, four months. Do you have any frustration as the chief security officer of the state without the necessary statutory control over the police, the army and other security agencies? Obviously, there is frustration. We are chief security officers by name but not by control of the security agencies. Your ability to control the security agencies that are here depends on your personal relationship with them. If you make them your friends, then you can work with them. If you don’t make them your friends and you just want to deal with them on official basis, then you might be frustrated sometimes in making them carry out some duties. That’s why some of where we can have better control as chief security officers and have more persons on the field who know the area. Somebody who is not from Delta will not have emotional attachment to security issues in the state. Secondly, he may also not understand the terrain the way somebody from this area would. Thirdly, if you are from around the community and you misbehave on security issues, members of your family are there. The situation will also affect them. That’s why some of us are advocating for state police. But I would say in Delta, so far so good. We’ve had good relationship with the security agencies in the state. But there are some challenges. Sometimes, the security agencies are also implicated in some of these actions of late, especially kidnapping. You have to go through a third party to handle the situation. You cannot handle it directly if you have all these suspicions. That is fairly difficult to manage. One of the points against state police is that it might be abused by the governor to fight opposition. Somebody once said that at the national level we’ve seen what the state could do with security agencies. When we say state police, it is not about me. If we start it now, by the time we make the constitutional amendment, I would have left office. There is no doubt that anything you introduce has its negative and positive sides. But I believe that the positive side of the state police is much more than whatever negative side there is. Abusing state police depends on the person. I believe that with time, things will normalise. At the inception of your administration, you announced a three-point agenda and you said it would be based on taking Delta State beyond oil revenue. How have you managed the affairs of the state so far with that outlook? WHAT I believe at the beginning, now and in the future is that we need to build an economy that is not totally dependent on oil. It is something I’m very passionate about. It is something I believe in. This is because oil is a very volatile commodity. It is a commodity that you might just wake up and see that it is no longer there. It is a commodity which experiences price variation. And each time there is price variation, it affects the economy. When it goes up or comes down, it affects the economy one way or the other. It is also a commodity we believe we can use to build up or to develop other areas of the economy. That has been our approach. Delta Beyond Oil simply means, how do we use the oil money that we have now to develop other areas of the economy? In terms of how far we have gone, I think we have gone very far. We’ve recorded a lot of successes. Our strategy is anchored on the three-point agenda of ensuring there is peace and security so that investors can come in by our providing a secured environment for investment whether micro, small, medium or large enterprises. Then two, develop infrastructure that will also attract investment. You know without infrastructure, it is quite difficult for any investment to succeed no matter what you are doing. From the barbing salon to the very heavy industries, they require some basic infrastructure. The significant ones are the areas of power and transportation. For transportation, we are talking of roads, airports, seaports and railways. We are also talking of the ICT, industrial parts and urban centres. So, how do you develop those infrastructure that will encourage investments? How do you also develop the human capacity or the human capital that will ensure that these investments succeed? That is the kind of strategy that we have used. I would say so far so good in the sense that at least we have attained some measure of peace that has been attracting investments. And I would say that Delta State is one of the states that have attracted a lot of investments in the past six years. Some have started, some are still ongoing in terms of discussions and enquiries. We are dealing with infrastructure in two parts. We have the long term heavy infrastructure. Then we have what we call the social infrastructure that allows us to achieve some success on what we call the low-hanging fruits. In terms of heavy infrastructure such as in the area of power, we are working with the Federal Government to improve generation capacity, transmission and distribution. We are involved in the three areas. We paid our money into the federal coffers, about N15.7 billion to complete the Item national independent power plants. We are part of the management team that will complete the power plant. We are also building our own independent power plant that will ensure that we generate something that will help Delta get more power. We have a lot of transmission and lines that are ongoing. We have purchased and installing so many transformers. We are also improving the transportation situation. We are constructing a lot of highways including major ones that are supposed to belong to the federal government. We are focusing on federal roads because they link the major parts of the state that are of economic value. We are also constructing rural and urban roads to improve the movements between the cities and the communities. We have an airport that is already operational although not completed. We are starting another one. It seems to be the only state where two airports are being developed because of the necessity and nature of the state. For seaports, we have been working with the federal government to open up all of them. We have a dredging problem though. Some of the channels are very narrow. They need to be dredged. We have one of the most comprehensive mass public transport system in which we provide for every segment of the society from the tricycle to taxis to small and big buses. We have an ICT park that we are developing for training our youths in various areas of ICT. We also have the Warri Industrial Park though still at the planning stage. Those are the things we are doing to attract heavy investments. On the other side too, we have the social infrastructure in which we are doing a lot in the areas of education, health and water. If you go round you will see massive renovation and rebuilding of some of our schools from primary, secondary to tertiary institutions. We are also working on our hospitals from primary health care, secondary health care to tertiary health care. We are improving on our water supply to the various communities within the state. THROUGH our human capital development efforts, we are trying to ensure a population that is ready to take on investment that is beyond the oil. And that starts from the first day of pregnancy to ensure that we have healthy children when they are delivered. We introduced free maternal health care service because one of the problems we have is that if you don’t take care of the baby while in the mother’s womb before the children would come out to become problem to the society. The scheme is also designed to ensure that in the first five years, they have free treatment. In the rural areas we have health care programme that is free for everybody. The programme runs for about three to four months in a year. We move from one rural area to the other. Overall, we have a comprehensive health arrangement to take care of everybody toward having a healthy population. In the education sector, apart from infrastructure, we are also making efforts to ensure that every child has access to school free of charge up to secondary level. We pay for their WAEC and NECO. At the tertiary level there are various scholarship schemes from bursary to scholarship for the very intelligent ones. For those who make First Class in the university, it is automatic scholarship worth N5 million a year to study anywhere in the world. We also have skill acquisition training centres for those who do not go to formal schools. For employment, we are creating enabling environment for investors to create jobs. We have also set up a micro-credit scheme which has benefited over a hundred thousand beneficiaries. When there is a beneficiary there is a multiplier effect when he starts a small business and employs others. Talking about the social infrastructure, we learnt that one of the scholarship awardees is a young lady whom you took delivery of as a baby, what did you feel when you learnt so? And secondly, we discovered when we recently toured the health facilities in the state, some people were of the opinion that you are paying much more attention to the health sector because of your background as medical doctor. What do you have to say about this? Well, as of paying attention to health, I don’t have any apology for it. It’s my field and I know the importance of health. A healthy population is one that can achieve anything. So we must pay serious attention to health. The attention should not just start from when the person is sick. It should start from when pregnancy occurs, from the first day when it is recognised as a human being. It should start from the first day the man and the woman sleep together and the egg and the sperm meet and form a human being, we should start paying attention to that entity. I pay attention to health because I believe that it is one of the ways in which you can have a society that is developing. As for the young lady, it was quite exciting for me. The background to that happened several years ago when I was practising. I practised actively for about 19 years. Although I ended up with anaesthesia but I did a lot of obstetrics and gynaecology because that was what I wanted to specialise in. I did it up to a level before I branched off into anaesthesia. I went practising in the Delta State community in Aladja. There was a hospital we used to call the German Hospital. It wasn’t the hospital where I was practising but it was more like a private hospital that the Germans built for themselves when they were constructing the Delta Steel Company. They had a doctor that was running it. And because it was a German hospital, many of our people had confidence in the hospital; they used to go there a lot. So, on that particular day, the doctor travelled. There was only one doctor there. And he was my friend. He asked me to cover for him, that if they had any cases, they should let me know. So, in the night, they called me to come and see this lady who was pregnant and in the process of delivering the baby but was having difficulty in doing so. I got there and I examined her. Apparently, the nurse that was supposed to take the delivery did not quite understand the slightly complicated case. She was an obese woman, very fat. And some skills were needed to be able to manage such cases. When I examined her, I found out that she was not ready to push the baby yet. The nurse thought that she was ready from her examination. It is a blind thing when you examine a woman that is in labour. The nurse asked the woman to push when she wasn’t ready. When I got there and examined the woman, I said she wasn’t ready to push out the baby and she shouldn’t be asked to push yet. Labour itself is a natural thing. It runs a natural course. I said she should be allowed to take her time. So, I was with her for about four hours while she was in labour. I was monitoring her to see that the baby was okay while the mouth of the womb which is called the cervix is ready to take the baby. At a point when I examined again she was ready and I personally took the delivery. That was several years ago. I had forgotten about it. After some years, I met the mother again on the political field. She is a politician. She reminded me of the incident. I reconnected with the family. The girl attended the millennium secondary school in Benin. On her graduation day, the mother invited me to the event. I was then still the Secretary to the Delta State government. I attended the graduation ceremony. But then the girl now gave me a name called FLT. I asked her, what is FLT? She said First Loving Touch, that I was the first person to touch her in life in the process of that delivery. Since then we call each other FLT. After that, once in a while we just meet. The mother used to be in government but she is no longer in government. I knew the girl had gone to the university in Europe but I didn’t even remember that she made a First Class. She came back and attended the Law School. So, when we were giving out the scholarships, I had actually made my speech and I was now giving each of the award winners their letters of award. They called her and it didn’t even occur to me until she got to me and I saw her. I was excited that she was the one. The point I’m trying to make is that our scholarship scheme does not require lobbying. First, I didn’t know that she was there until I saw her. If it had to be through lobbying they would have gotten to me and she would have told me, you are my FLT, please favour me. That was one of my excitements. Of course, the bigger excitement is that somebody I sort of delivered is now big enough to be awarded a scholarship. I have so many like her, so many of these

Major-General Adeyinka Adebayo (rtd), was the military governor of the old Western Region the during the reign of General Yakubu Gowon. Except you have read about him or you were his contemporary, nothing about him, as he sits staring at you, depicts greatness. But he has seen it all. He staked his life for the unity of Nigeria. He ranks as one of the oldest surviving Civil War generals in Nigeria. Shortly after an introduction at a recent event in Ekiti State, The Nation’s DUPE OLAOYE-OSINKOLU met with him and had a very brief chat with him.

THE retired General, picking his words carefully, recalled his military days with nostalgia, as he took this reporter down memory lane.

He said Nigeria has departed from the good old days of secure and disciplined country, adding that the country needed re-adjustment if it would remain one. He was particular about loyalty and unity.

His reminiscence brings to mind the slogan: ‘To keep Nigeria one, is a task that must be done’. Pa Adebayo thanked God for saving his life which he said would have been snuffed out by coupists in 1966, but for His (God’s) grace.

“I was lucky the coup plotters did not know I was in the country. They would have killed me.”

How did he escape their hot-red led? He explained that he was in England for training, courtesy of the Nigeria Army. He was the Chief of Staff, Nigeria Army Headquarters during late General Aguiyi Ironsi’s short administration. He was to go with other course mates from Imperial Defence College, London, where he was the only African officer. His college was to go on a tour of the world. He decided to dash home and consults the Head of State before embarking on the journey.

His arrival in the country, however, coincided with the coup but his colleagues knew he was away in England, none of them knew he was in Nigeria, which turned out a saving grace for him.

“We were to go on a tour of the world from my college in London. And I felt I should consult my head of state before going on that tour in order to know his policy and that of Nigeria. Unfortunately, I did not see him, the coup took place then. I was lucky the coup plotters didn’t know I was in the country. They would have killed me.

“There was confusion because the military governor of Western Region, Col. Adekunle Fajuyi who was junior to me on the job was killed in the first coup and Nigerians, particularly the Yoruba, did not know who would take over the administration of the region. I went to the Yoruba elders whom I knew very well in Lagos before I went on that course. People like Sir Adetokunbo Ademola, Chief Justice of the Federation, Chief S.L. Edu, Dr Majekodunmi. I went to discuss the situation in the country with them.”

Pa Adebayo said they were surprised to see him because they knew he was on a course in England. The elders pleaded with him to take over as governor of Western Region but he refused, saying the assassinated governor was his junior. They insisted he must become governor of the region since the Northerners had insisted Gowon must take over as Head of State, following the killing of General Aguyi Ironsi by the coupists.

“It took me three days to agree to become the governor of Western Region, again because of the seniority. I was senior to Gowon. He was working under me before I left for England. But the Yoruba elders insisted I must be in charge of the West. I agreed on the fourth day because I did not want more problems for Nigeria.”

Looking at governance today, he said it is very different from what they had then. He said military governors in those days were good and disciplined. He added that security was also very good. He lamented the current state of security in the country.

“Unfortunately, security now is a mixed situation. One can’t guarantee sincere security now. The loyalty is not there, no sincerity. There are too many political parties. Everybody wants to be president. We cannot achieve much unless there is loyalty and discipline; to have one Nigeria, we must have loyalty among the leaders, less number of leadership, less number of political parties. Think more of the country, then of your personal state.”

He recalled that selflessness was a key word in his days in government.

“When I was there, I never thought of myself as an Ekiti man or a Yoruba man. I thought of myself as a Nigerian.”

Calling for the re-adjustment of the country, Pa Adebayo said people should put the country first before self. He said the country should rise above tribalism, as ‘united we stand.’

On whether a woman president should be allowed to emerge, he allowed a smile and said: “That would depend on her party and tribe. No doubt, women are good. They should not be any difference between men and women. No discrimination.”

Having served the country as a governor, how did he feel when his son also became a governor? He said he did not even campaign for him; he was only advising him behind the scene. He was, however, pleased with his son, Niyi, the first elected governor of Ekiti State “For copying good things from me.” Papa said the Ekiti people voted for his son because of the way he (his father) served them as governor of Western Region.

Prof. Dosumu Emmanuel Adesina is a professor of Medicine and Pulmonologist, Delta State University, Abraka, and former visiting Chief Consultant Physician and Pulmonologist, National Hospital, Abuja. In this interview with GBENGA ADERANTI, Adesina shares his insight on Nigerians’ attitude to free medical care, why health policies have failed in Nigeria and his personal life. Excerpts:

Working with the opposite sex ladies could prove enough distraction. How do you cope with advances from nurses and female students?

Temptation always comes, but the way out is that I have a beautiful wife in Dr. (Mrs) Funmi Dosumu. Before I can approach another lady, I will think of my wife and see if the person is as beautiful as my wife at home; if not, what then am I looking for? The Lord has been my source of strength.

Has your faith or religion helped you in your medical profession?

My profession has also helped me to have greater believe in God.

What is that fashion item you can’t do without?

I am addicted to putting on suit with my tie in place. This is a culture that we were taught from the first day in the medical school.

What was growing up like?

Growing up was very interesting. I started school at the age of five at my home town, Otan Aiyegbeju in Osun State of Nigeria. I attended St. Nicholas Primary School. There was plenty of food in those days and I can remember that it was pounded yam at night throughout my stay at home till I left for secondary school.

What is your greatest fear in life?

My greatest fear in life is old age, when, unlike now, you become helpless and unable to do many things for yourself.

Are you fulfilled at 60?

I am fulfilled at 60. I have no regrets about anything I did in the last 60 years. This is because every challenge that came my way, I did my best to manage every situation to the best of my ability. God has been my strength.

What is that greatest lesson you’ve learnt about life at 60?

My greatest lesson at 60 is that challenges will always come, but when they come, identify what you should do to solve the problem. Pursue these identified ways so effectively, aggressively and consistently so that you will forget the initial challenges. Then leave the rest to God. Also pray as if prayer is the only solution to any challenge and work so hard as if working hard is the only solution to that problem. In order words, work and pray without ceasing.

How do you unwind?

I unwind by taking a holiday. This has taken me to all continents of the world and at least 10 states in the USA. I watch wrestling and visit my country home and my country home farm and garden. I also stay with my family.

Despite the avalanche of specialists in Nigeria, yet Nigerians go abroad for treatment on a daily basis. What is responsible for this?

I must admit that the infrastructure is simply not there in the health sector. The number of hospitals is so few. We need at least one general hospital in each of the 774 council areas in Nigeria. We need at least three teaching/specialist hospitals in each state of the federation.

Many of the hospitals lack the critical equipment and specialists for them to function maximally. Many of the people have lost the confidence in the Nigerian health sector. These account for why many troop abroad for specialist medical attention. Again, majority of those seeking medical attention abroad are government civil servants who usually use free government money with estacode. Most Nigerians cannot afford treatment abroad on their own.

Many people have argued that our teaching hospitals don’t have what it takes to graduate medical students. How true is this?

I do not agree with this assertion. The standard in many medical schools in Nigeria are still good. There is need to sustain and improve the standard. However, if the standard has fallen grossly as alleged, how come that many of our medical graduates are in the USA, UK, South Africa etc., and they passed the qualifying exams and are doing well in those countries? Medical graduates from Nigeria are like hot cakes in many countries.

How would you describe the health sector in the country?

The health sector in the country is in a bad shape no doubt. This is due to the very few hospital facilities compared to the population. The vote for health is grossly low. The Federal Government is trying, but most states that control the general hospitals and the local government councils that control and run the primary health services are doing close to nothing to improve the health services. Lagos State alone has just one federal teaching hospital and a state teaching hospital at its early stage. A state requires at least five teaching hospitals with about 20 general hospitals.

If you were not a medical doctor, what would you be doing?

I wanted to be a medical doctor. I thank God that I got into the very profession that I prayed for and that I have passion for. When I applied to the university to study Medicine 41 years ago, my first choice was Medicine, second choice was Medicine and third choice was Medicine. If people come back after death, I will still want to study Medicine.

You have different governments with different health policies, why do you think our health policies have not been working?

The basic problem is the allocation or vote for health on a yearly basis. It has been grossly too low, especially at the state and local government levels. The health policies are good but no money to execute any meaningful health services.

If you were to proffer solutions to our health problems, what would that be?

All Nigerians should have a mandatory health insurance scheme. There is need for a legal backing for a mandatory health insurance scheme for all Nigerians. This will allow a qualitative, affordable, available and effective health service for all Nigerians.

The one year mandatory training for resident doctors undergoing their specialist training in Nigeria should be reintroduced and executed effectively. The allocation for health should be increased to a minimum of 15% of the total annual budget of all the three levels of Government in Nigeria.

Would you support free medical care?

Free medical care cannot work. There is no way in Nigeria with a population of about 170 million people that free health services can work. Even if we stop all expenditure on all other critical areas and we use all our resources on health, we cannot effect or deliver good health free of charge. No country has been able to achieve this all over the world.

It seems we can’t win the war on fake drugs. What is the way out?

NAFDAC is doing very well. NAFDAC should be encouraged. I am convinced, with time, we will get there.

What is your attitude to traditional medicine and do you believe in local midwives?

Traditional medicine is fraught with a lot of secrecy. There is need for their products to be subjected to scientific analysis. We need to find out the active reagent or substances in them. The active potent reagents in them need to be compared with the existing similar drugs. We need to find out their side-effect profile and their dosages. To just make a wide claim without scientific proof is barbaric, primitive and stupid to say the least.

The traditional midwives issue came up during the time of Prof. Olikoye Ransome-Kuti. Years later, we now know that its support and propagation has negative effects as many of them exceeded their limits and consequent complications and increasing further, of Maternal Mortality Rate for the country.

Alternative medicines, especially herbal products, have taken over our pharmacy, how healthy is this?

Herbal products marketed by “native doctors” have doubtful efficacy and have not been properly studied scientifically. They should not be allowed to be used by Nigerians.

Do you see the alternative medicine taken over in the nearest future?

As the level of education improves among Nigerians, the use of herbal medication of unknown efficacy and unproven active ingredients will dwindle to a vanishing point. Alternate medical practice of proven efficacy etc. might increase in usage by Nigerians as the level of education of the populace increases.

What is the future of medicine in Nigeria since many people are gradually abandoning hospitals?

A number of people patronise spiritual (church) healing homes and native herbal preparations because of the level of poverty in a gullible population. As the economy improves, more people will come back to the orthodox method of treatment.

Why do you think that doctors always feel slighted each time a pharmacist is made either health commissioner or minister?

All members of the health team are important and have a definite and unique role to play in the management of the patient. So, pharmacists, physiotherapists, radiographers, laboratory scientists etc., are all very important as much as doctors, nurses etc. However, there must be a leader in any organisation. Since the training of the doctor stands him out among all other members of the health team, the doctor is in the best position to lead. His training encompasses almost all that the others know. The doctor is the one that sets all others to work. He sees the patient first and decides who works and who does not work. Also, all over the world, the doctor leads the health team.

People say tribalism and ethnicity are one of the problems militating against the development of the country. Do you agree with this assertion, given that you are operating outside your geopolitical zone?

I feel it is to a greater extent true. However, this applies to everywhere in the country.

It was an anathema of a sort for a medical student to cheat, but nowadays you hear medical students being caught cheating during the exams, what future does this portend for the profession?

It is very rare for medical students to be caught cheating in examinations. In my 26 years of teaching in medical schools, I can count the number of such cases I have seen. The way the examinations are conducted, that is orals and clinical makes it difficult to cheat.

What has been your greatest challenging in medical profession?

There have been several challenges that I have witnessed in the profession, but the guiding principle is to do my best professionally for my patient and leave the rest to God. I go home at the end and sleep like a baby.

Pastor Ayodele Oritsejafor is the General Overseer of Word of Life Bible Church, Warri, Delta State. He is also the President of the Christians Association of Nigeria (CAN) and the Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria (PFN), the first to hold the two offices simultaneously. Pastor Oritsejafor is a man of God known for his bluntness and blistering comments on national and religious issues. He is usually not given to yearly predictions, but this seems to have changed in 2013, as he has reeled out predictions about the nation. In this interview with Assistant Editors, LINUS OBOGO and GBENGA ADERANTI, Pastor Oritsejafor spoke on sundry issues and at a point, wept over the anguish brought on the Christian North by Boko Haram Islamic sect. Excerpts:

You are everything rolled into one, a pastor, an author, an apostle, an evangelist, a teacher, but above all, a prophet. We have just entered 2013 today (January 1). As a prophet of God, what prophecy do you have for Nigeria, given that 2012 was bleak, harrowing and tormenting? What does 2013 holds for Nigeria?

First of all, let me begin by saying that every nation has its own spiritual atmosphere over it and Nigerian is not an exception. So, every manifestation you see has its own problems. What is going on is as a result of what is in the atmosphere. Every problem has its spiritual aspect.

What I’m going to tell you now is something I have not done in 40 years. I’ve been very careful not to say things that will hit people hard. But I think the way we are now, I need to say this and I say it with all humility that there is a dark cloud over this nation in 2013. It is very dark. That is the truth. There is a wind which is about to blow this nation (Nigeria). This wind has the capacity to clean up the spiritual atmosphere over this nation.

There are some powerful people who will lose their power base this year. Also, there are some unsung heroes who will be celebrated this year. There are also some unknown people who are nationalistic and who will emerge this year. But I must stress that despite the dark cloud hovering over Nigeria, it is not going to break up. The name Nigeria is not going to disappear from the face of the earth. We should not be afraid, but the unity of this nation is seriously going to be tested to its very foundation. It is going to be pulled to the limits, to the very limits of its existence. We are going to feel all that this year. And on account of all these, I’m saying I want to seriously plead with Christians, especially and also Nigerians of goodwill to join me every last Friday of every month throughout this year, beginning on Friday 25th of January in fasting and prayers and asking God to intervene. It will only bring good out of whatever that wants to happen in this country. And only good will come to us. That is what I have for the nation.

I pray that people will understand what I’ve just said. But if they don’t understand at all, they should at least join me in the last Friday of every month beginning from the 25th of this month. Let us pray and fast because at the end of the day, as I said, every problem has a spiritual side and physical side. Many times, the physical side is a manifestation of the spiritual. I say this with all sense of humility. I’ve never spoken like this in all these years because there are people who think that some of us are just concerned about spiritual things that are floating out there. That is why I avoid saying things like this. I’m a realist and at the same time, I believe that there are issues you and I must deal with. I wish I’m talking to everybody and not just you, The Nation editors sitting in front of me.

I mean everybody who understands spiritual things. If you read your Bible, you will find in the book of Daniel where Daniel was praying for the nation and he went on a 21-day fasting. He was trying to understand the problem of the nation of Babylon and one day while fasting, he was asking God for something. He had just begun fasting and as he went on in fasting, at the end of the second day of fasting, an archangel appeared to him and told him that ‘Daniel, the first day you began your prayer, God heard you and sent me with the answer, but you see, as I was coming, I was stopped in the spirit realm’. He said he was stopped by the Prince of Persia.

There was the physical Prince of Persia, and there was a spiritual Prince who the angel spoke about. But there is another ruler elsewhere in the spiritual realm, somebody who is manipulating things in the spirit realm. That was what the archangel was saying. He said: ‘He stopped me and we fought there until God sent an archangel Michael to join me in the battle. I left Michael to continue until I brought you the answer.’ Now this is my first time of talking this way, I usually don’t like talking this way. But there is hope for this country.

Have you shared this with other great men of God in Nigeria?

This is something that has just been revealed to me in the last one or two weeks. I’ve been in prayer for the country, I do that every year when we are coming to the end of the year. In my position, I have to spend some special quality time with God at a time like this. The most fruitful time I have was actually yesterday (December 31, 2012). Yesterday, I was able to stay alone throughout the night. This is something I’ve just developed. We were entering the New Year and I could not be talking to everybody. I could not even call my friends. But when I return from my travel, there are some people, Christian leaders that I will be meeting with whom I will share something. But you have to understand that what I’ve just told you, it is not everybody that I have shared them with.

When you are leading a large and diverse people, or how do I put it? The Christian church is made up of people of different shades of beliefs and doctrines. You don’t force what you believe on people. I think that is very wrong. People have the right to believe what they want to believe, and that is very important. I respect what you believe. You can’t lead people when you think you know more than everybody and I must say that I don’t know more than anybody. So I’m humble enough to understand that whatever I know is between me and God, but I must respect the views of everybody.

What you have just told us about the country may not be different from what a lay man has already known about the socio-political outlook of Nigeria in 2013. Did God or the Holy Spirit reveal this to you? Or you merely imagined what is going to happen in 2013?

I’m telling you something spiritual. I just told you now that there is a dark cloud over this country and I also told you that some powerful people are going to leave their power base. I also told you that some unsung heroes will be celebrated. Then I told you that some nationalistic personalities unknown will begin to emerge this year. I also told you that Nigeria will not break. Let me be honest with you, I had always felt that Nigeria will break because when you look at the kind of things that are happening, in my own opinion, the worst is the disdain for human lives, the lack of value for the sacredness of human lives. When you consider the way people are being slaughtered, the kidnappings and armed robberies, you cannot but reason that Nigeria will break. The worst is the Boko Haram.

Sometimes, you think every other problem in the country is probably more than the Boko Haram menace. But for crying out loud, this is human blood and every human blood is going to cry out to God for vengeance. Everyone and even the military said that in the last three years, over 3,000 human beings had been killed. These were innocent people, and you don’t think that the 3,000 people will be crying out to God? I hate corruption, but for people to even think that it is corruption that created Boko Haram, I do not agree. It is not true. It is like saying that it was corruption that created Bin Laden, it is still not true. I do not agree that it was corruption that made a Nigerian boy to want to bomb the American plane mid air, no, it was not. It is religious fundamentalist idea.

Not until we start addressing the real issue plaguing the country. Corruption is very bad. It stands side by side with Boko Haram. But Boko Haram has a little edge over corruption.. If Nigeria breaks today, are we going to be talking about corruption? if there is no Nigeria, will you be talking about fuel subsidy? Who is going to use the fuel? Dead people? What I’m saying now should be put in proper perspective. Don’t misunderstand me. Corruption is a terrible thing that is actually eating this country. It also has the potential of destroying this nation, but Boko Haram is much worse.

That was why I felt terrible when one international human rights group was accusing the military of extra-judicial killings. But the group did not mention about 3,000 innocent people killed by a group of mad men. They were more concerned about the criminals who are killing people than them being killed by anybody.

Still on your prophecy Pastor, will the Boko Haram menace and corruption end this year or when will that be? Or what is prophecy concerning Boko Haram?

Again, I don’t want to spiritualise it because as I said, every problem has a spiritual and physical aspect. I told you that there is a dark cloud hovering over this country, Nigeria. Dark cloud is symbolic of some of the problems we just spoke of. But don’t forget that I said there is a wind that will blow and which has the capacity to bring Nigeria to a place where peace that has eluded us for so long will gradually come into the country. But it is hard for me to say that Boko Haram will end but I can tell you that Boko Haram will lose its battle. They will lose and lose big time. What is very terrible about this is that what they are doing now will affect some real people, I mean notable people in this country. It will affect them but for me to put a time line, I don’t know, I will not tell you what I don’t know. I don’t know the time it will end, it is a losing battle for them. Gradually you will see an end to this thing. Evil can never prevail over good, it can’t happen and Nigeria will never be an exception. Even this corruption issue, corruption has now been brought to the front burner in this nation.

There was a time when nobody talked about corruption. It was something that was becoming very significant in the affairs of this country, but today, in fact, a little child now has the idea of what corruption means, if nothing else, the word corruption. For me to give you a time line as to when corruption will end is difficult. Remember, that was why I said I’m pleading with my Christian brethren to join me in the last Friday of every month to let us pray. God speaks, I don’t know what other Christian leaders have been saying. Many times God’s mind is to do something, but don’t forget that when God wants to do something, there are forces that don’t want such things to be done. It is not as if God cannot superimpose. But He doesn’t.

For example, Jesus would have just dropped from heaven and just landed and say I’m Jesus, but He was born. He came through a natural process. Why? because the way God created this world, He created it for human beings not spirit beings. So, when God wants in human form, just His appearance alone will destroy this world. Even the devil himself does not have the legitimate right to live in this world because it was not made for him and when the devil wants to do his work, he makes use of human beings. God uses human beings and the devil uses human beings as well. If you are a good student of the Bible, you will understand that just like Jesus came through the virgin Mary, the same way, some anti-Christ will come. There is gong to be a strong personality in this world, I don’t know when, who will come into this world and take charge of so many things and try to turn people away from God.

You and I know that he will be very strong. That personality is going to be born like any other human being. It is not as if he is going to come and say I am a spirit being, it is going to be a human being, somebody that will come and be accepted by human beings. He will be born somewhere by parents. He will be very intelligent, have two, three or ten degrees, PhD in this, PhD in that. I’m just imagining a powerful peace advocate that is going to connect people and everybody will be hailing him until he gets to a certain position where he will control certain resources and certain things and begin to take control of this world. He will be a very good student of the Bible. God does not interfere in the affairs of the men without using man. There is something going on, that is why those of us who have faith through Jesus Christ are calling on all Nigerians of good and faith to join me in prayer.

If you were asked to proffer solutions to the Boko Haram menace, what would that be?

Again, as I said, every problem has the spiritual side and physical side, but for the spiritual side, I say join me, let us pray. For the physical and practical side, first, I’m back to what I have been saying in the last one and a half years that one of the reasons why security agencies have not been making a headway is because they have certain elements within the security agencies that are part of Boko Haram. Some of them are in strategic positions in the security agencies and it is a fact. But the truth is that in the security agencies, there are some people who are in the strategic positions who shouldn’t be there because most of the time, Boko Haram elements know what they are planning. As soon as they finish planning, the information gets to them. And instead of the military people ambushing Boko Haram, it is the Boko Haram ambushing the military.

What does this say? It is because Boko Haram is getting intelligence information meant for the security agencies. They know more than the military themselves. Sometimes, they know the number of military personnel involved in an operation they know the type of weapons they are carrying and they confront them with more sophisticated ones. What I’m saying is that a lot of these security agencies have been polarized along religious lines. There are some people who believe that they are protecting their religion. Unfortunately, they believe this and they will do everything to make sure that Boko Haram is not apprehended.

Number two, we should stop pretending that this problem is an economic problem because it is not. If you refuse to admit this, you have a problem and you will never solve it. When I open the pages of newspapers and I see responsible people in vantage positions telling us that the reason why Boko Haram exists is because of injustice, inequality, poverty and neglect, I just sit back and ask myself, how can people be so wicked? They know the truth, they know that is not the truth. The truth is Boko Haram is a religious extremist ideology. I’m not calling all Muslims in Nigeria extremist. If you go round the world today, you will also hear the word I’m using, If we keep running away from it, insisting that it does not exist, the problem will remain with us.

But if we can admit that this ideology problem is there, then what must happen is that government and others must find ways of engaging some of our northern political, religious and traditional leaders, but with more emphasis on religion. They must locate a lot of Imams, sheiks and clerics who are at the grassroots who preach to people in mosques, people they have influence on that Nigeria belongs to all of us, that Christians are not their enemies; Christians are their brothers and sisters and we are fighting the same cause, we are together, we are one, they should not give them the impression that Nigerians hate them.

It is an ideological thing. If we have not dealt with this, we have not done anything. So far, I have mentioned two crucial things that must be critically looked into. If these two things are looked into and dealt with properly, you will be surprised how far this issue will go.

That brings us to the final one which is for the ordinary Muslim on the street in these key states to speak out about their sponsors. Some of them are afraid because they feel they will be killed. But a times comes in this life when you will begin to ask yourself, if I speak, I may be killed, if I don’t, we will all be killed. So, we must take quality decisions, we must decide what we want to do. If I don’t speak, not only we will be killed, my children, my children’s children will never have a place of their own called Nigeria.

Let me take you back to January 2012 when Nigerians protested against the removal of fuel subsidy. Many people believe that you have a close relationship with President Goodluck Jonathan, what did you tell him during the protest?

First of all, let me begin by saying that I believe that the issue of fuel subsidy is a complicated and complex one. It is complex and complicated because when you look at it, there are people who say that there has never been subsidy anyway. There are those who question the way it is removed. There are so many different ways of looking at it. I agree that it is very complicated but let me say this, it is only the living people that can fight the issue of fuel subsidy.

So, help me amplify the issue of Boko Haram because if Boko Haram kills all of us, we will not be talking about fuel subsidy and protest. It is very important that we look at it. When I said it then, some people shouted at me saying: ‘you are with them, you are one of them’. Don’t I buy fuel myself? Do you think I like to be buying fuel at a higher price? I don’t want to say something and it will be taken as rude. I was going to say why can’t we have fuel for free? You just go there and pump into your car, after all, I’m from the Niger Delta, my people are suffering. What I’m saying is that we should first solve the security problem of this country and the fuel subsidy thing will be handled.

People say I have a relationship with Mr. President, he is not my enemy. So, I cannot tell you that I don’t know him. But the kind of relationship some people seem to describe sometimes, I don’t know. I don’t just wake up and say Mr. President, here I’m. By my position, I should have contact with the Villa in such a way that if I say I’m coming to see Mr. President, there should be no restriction. That will be the kind of relationship I should say I have. But is that the true position? However, that is not to say that I do not chip in my advice to the President when it is necessary. And it is not something I have to broadcast to the whole world. Should I be telling everyone I see whether or not I advise the President? This kind of thing is that you will not have another opportunity to give that kind of advice tomorrow. But anything that will make life difficult for the common man, I’m against it.

Still on Boko Haram, Mr. President reportedly said that some Boko Haram elements had infiltrated his cabinet. Has it bothered you as to ask him to name them or why he has not flushed them out?

Honestly, I don’t know because I’m not in Mr. President’s mind. My advice is that you should go and ask Mr. President what he meant. Mr. President had a media chat the last time, I was surprised that I didn’t hear any of your colleagues ask him such a question. Honestly I don’t have answers to that. He may have his reasons for saying that. It may be that he does not want you and me to know.

Just last week, you made some donation of six cars, 15 tricycles, sewing machines, 200 bags of rice, among others, to the less-privileged from varied religious leanings. What informed the gesture?

First of all, if God who created you and me allows everybody to live in this place called world, I don’t think I will be in proper place to be the one to question why all these people do exist. When I look at atheists, I look at “juju” worshippers and Christians alike, they all have one nose, two ears, one mouth, two eyes and I don’t see any difference. Religion is by conviction. Some people are born into certain religions, sometimes when they grow up, they will change because they have a conviction to do something else. That is the way I believe the way of God for everyman. Recently, a group of Muslim youths visited me and we had a chat and we discussed many things and I asked them, when we really talk about freedom of worship, do you believe in it? There are some things we see happen, maybe by accident, if a member of my household comes across the street from where I live and sees you mount your preaching equipment as a Muslim and you begin to preach Islam and he listens to you and says I think I like this and he goes, I’m not going to do anything because that is his choice. It is that person’s choice to make that decision. But also, if a Christian preacher in Sokoto or Kano, should stand up to preach freely, and a Muslim living in the home of an Emir decides that what he is hearing is what is best for him, he should not only accept it, but must be allowed to accept it. This, to me, is the true freedom of worship Nigeria needs today.

When I’m dealing with people and it comes to poverty, poverty does not know religion, poverty does not know ethnicity. Poverty is poverty, a man who has not eaten has not eaten so what he needs is food. So when Jesus fed 5,000 men not to talk of women and children, did he select those who were believers? It was a multitude of people who came to hear Him. They could have been from different religions. Christ was not interested in their religion as far as their stomach was concerned. He didn’t say if you have accepted what I have preached come to this side, if you know you have not accepted, go to this side and stay hungry, he didn’t. He described true religion as when you take care of people.

Let us come to something I do every year. It is something that I have been doing for years. It is a way of life for me. What some people don’t know is that I used to charter a plane to the north, Maiduguri, Jos and other places to distribute relief materials to everybody. I’ve been doing that for years not because I’m the CAN President. I have been doing it before I became CAN President. Even before I became the PFN President, I’ve been doing that. Let us take time to give because God so loved the world and what did He did to show this love? He gave his only begotten son as sacrifice. The wise men who came to look for Jesus, when they found him, they brought Him expensive gifts. So, the best expression of Christmas is to give people who don’t have. I wish I could do much more, I wish I had 1,000 brand new cars.

Governments at all levels as well as many of our big corporations and big private companies can afford to give but I wonder why they are not. I do this because at every point when you look at yourself and see what God has done in your life, you must give back to others. There are many people whose lives have been turned around by this little gesture. overnment is not the only business in Nigeria today, but the only business that is thriving is government. If you want a contract, go to government, if you want good money, look for a position in government. Some of these things we do is to see how we can take some of the people who are in the official list of disadvantaged people, poor people, active poor people. It is just my own little way of saying let me help them. We have been doing it officially now for seven years and unofficially I have been doing this for 15 -20 years. There are so many people I have seen through schools. Some have long graduated and are working. Many are in various universities in Nigeria and abroad. It is my joy when I meet them and see that they have become useful to themselves and their relatives. Some of these people, I can’t recognise them any longer. When they see me, they say you did this you did that for me.

You said government is the only thriving business in Nigeria, but several people out there know that government and churches are not only the two thriving businesses, but lucrative businesses in Nigeria today. Why are churches and government the only thriving businesses in Nigeria?

Let me ask you a personal question, do you believe that churches are a thriving business in Nigeria?

(Reporters)Yes Pastor

Then, why have you not opened one? A sensible person, who is normal and who knows that something can fetch him money should go into the business. I’m still surprised that you are still a journalist. I know that an average Nigerian if he sees any opening that can give him a little bit of money and I know you are not different, will not waste time to exploit the opportunity. I know that you are a Nigerian and since churches are making so much money, even if you cannot leave your journalism profession to open a church, why don’t you get your younger brother, just help him to open a church so that you can start making money, so that in the next three months you can help and feed me since there is so much money in the church?

You people deceive yourselves. Just because you see a few rascals here and there doing the wrong thing, you just make a blanket statement and then decide this is how much churches are making. Sometimes some of us are pained by some statements being made by not only some of you in the media, but others as well, but we try and overlook it, we take it like that. You are a journalist, you have the power of the pen, but I have the power of my knees, and you can destroy with your pen, all that I can do is to go on my knees and pray. Sometimes you people use your mouth to say something that will destroy you tomorrow. Some Nigerians see churches as a money spinner, I really don’t understand. If churches are like private businesses, every Nigerian should go into it.

Let me ask you this question, how many people pay tithe in churches? In an average church, according to statistics, only about 20 per cent of members pay tithes. The average poor man does not pay tithe. Is it the man I’m trying to give a car or grinding machine to and who may not even go to church, that will pay tithe? He does not have money to put slippers on his feet. He cannot even give an offering. So when you look at a church, the people who keep that church going sometimes are just a handful of people who by their own conviction would say let me do this or do that for the church.

Let me give you an example, we have a beautiful brochure in our church, I don’t know how many pages, but it costs about N800 plus to make one, but we were selling it for N500. As at last week, they told me that they were still quite a number of them lying around. I have a number of pastors who have good jobs and some of them are businessmen. I have discovered that every businessman is a potential leader either in church or in a secular world. One of my pastors happens to be somebody who occupies very good position in the society, when he heard the announcement, he just wrote a note that I pastor so, so and so will pay for the remaining copies of the brochure, let it be given out free. Some pastors even said don’t sell the brochure again since we still have them remaining, obviously many people can’t afford it. So what did we do? We gave them out free. This is how a lot of churches are able to survive today. a number of people in the church who by their conviction want to thank God for what He has done for them, usually come out to say let me do this, let me do that.

So when you see churches the way it is, it is not because everybody that goes there is able to afford something for that church to grow.

As I said, you don’t look at one or two rascals and conclude that everybody is like that. When some of us started preaching about 40 years ago, it was a taboo to give your daughter to a pastor. But what you have to understand is that 40 years is a long time. After 40 years as a journalist, shouldn’t there be a difference in your life? There should be. Some of us have come a long way to get to where we are. there are some people who agree that we have contributed to their lives and they blessed us.

So, please, don’t add churches as a thriving business in Nigeria, don’t do that because it insults the sensibility and sensitivity of some people. Let me repeat the fact that just because some people are doing some things that are not correct does not mean everybody is doing it. Just because there are counterfeit dollars, does that mean you won’t spend dollars again? Does that mean you don’t have the real one? Please, Christianity is genuine; there are many men or women of God who are preaching unadulterated gospel that is changing people’s lives as we speak.

As a man of God, what is it that will grieve your heart as to make you cry and have you ever cried as a pastor?

About one or two or three things, today as we speak, that grieves my heart and it is the killing of Christians in the north. It does not just grieve my mind, it breaks my heart because it is difficult for me to understand why anybody in the name of God will just be slaughtering human beings. People wonder why I speak the way I do; imagine the other day when a former governor, a two-time governor of Yobe State, Senator Bukar Abba Ibrahim, came out and said that not only should Federal Government dialogue with Boko Haram, if he had just said that, I would not be bothered because we have heard that several times. I would have just laughed it off, if he had stopped at that. But he went on to say that the reason why Boko Haram is here is because of neglect, injustice and inequality. In fact, he was saying this from his very Yobe State, a place called Piri.

People went for Christmas eve service at Piri; they were in church and lo and behold, they started killing them (suddenly, the pastor caves in to emotion, breaks down sobbing). What is this? They slaughtered them in tens. This is a man who was a governor of the same state. Why do we allow this in our country (sobbed profusely)? We should not allow this in our country, it is not right (sobs again). It is not right, I’m so sorry, but why? It is so sad.

Despite the avalanche of other men of God and Christian leaders, why are you seemingly the lone voice in the fight against the menace of Boko Haram?

Again, that is where you the media come in. Some of you in the media should ask questions. I should not be the one you should be asking. You should be asking other people why they are not talking. I’m talking because I feel what they feel. I’m a human being and I cannot sit by and watch these things happen like that. They break my heart.

There was a day, I was shown a video clip of the killing of Christians by Boko Haram. I broke down and started crying. They tied a young man’s hands behind his back and then cut off his head. I felt it and if anybody saw it and did not feel anything, that person shouldn’t be alive. Secondly, I am the President of the Christians Association of Nigeria and if nobody else says anything, I am not in the luxury of not saying anything because I was elected by Christians to lead and defend them. Part of the reason I was elected was to be a voice to the voiceless. If I keep quiet, then something is definitely wrong. I should resign because it must have come to a point where if I cannot do the job. The only option is to resign and go home. I am a pastor of Words of Life Bible Church. There is no Word of Life in the North. I might as well stay in my Warri base. I was elected to do a job. I cannot afford to sacrifice the lives of people on the altar of friendship.

Government seems to have failed on Boko Haram, while some people believe that prayers do not seem to have made the required impact. What is the way out?

I don’t want to say government has failed. Why did I say this? At least, you have seen that they have caught some suspects. They have done some things and we have seen some things they have done, but we are saying it is not enough. I will also tell you that prayers have not failed. Why did I say this? Now if with the prayers we have prayed we are where we are today, can you imagine what would have happened if we did not pray? It probably would have been worse than what we have today. God is supreme, God is sovereign and God is God. What makes God God is that He has the final say in all situations. If you read your Bible, you will remember the story of Elisha. Through Elisha, the Shunamite woman became pregnant and had a child in her old age. But as you study your Bible, you will find out that later that child died.

First of all, why would a miracle child die? Where was God? As I said, He is sovereign. The child died and the woman started searching for Elisha. Finally, the woman found him. Elisha confessed something. He said God hid this from me. So, why would God hide this from him? That is why He is God. There are some things you cannot question God about. That is why I said how Boko Haram will wind up, I don’t know. I know they will lose the war and the battle and they will lose it big time. I can tell you that prayer is working and it is working very well. That is why Nigeria will continue to survive and that is why Nigeria will continue to be Nigeria because of the payers that are going on. But government can do better than it is doing now.

The Chairman of the Nigerian Bar Association (NBA), Port Harcourt branch, Mr Lawrence Oko-Jaja, is an indigene of coastal Opobo, the headquarters of the Opobo/Nkoro Local Government Area of Rivers State .  Since after his youth service at the Legal Aid Council in Ilorin, Kwara State in 1986/1987, he has been in private legal practice and he is the Managing Solicitor and Head of Chambers of Lawrence S. Oko-Jaja and Co,  Port Harcourt. In this interview with BISI OLANIYI, he speaks on his baptism of fire in Justice Ayo Salami’s high court in Ilorin; how he survived the civil war and says understanding and communication are the secrets of his successful marriage. Excerpts:

How does it feel to be NBA Chairman in Port Harcourt branch, with so many Senior Advocates of Nigeria (SANs) and other eminent lawyers?

It is very exciting and challenging. When you consider that we are almost hitting four thousand in our membership, with 14 SANs in Port Harcourt branch. Out of the number, we have a past National President of the NBA. The 19th President of the NBA, O.C.J. Okocha, SAN, is from the branch. The current President of the NBA ,Okechukwu Wali, SAN, is also from Port Harcourt branch.

It is quite challenging when you have to deal with 4,000 highly-educated, enlightened and learned lawyers as members of a branch of the NBA, including 14 SANs, coming from various backgrounds with various problems, ranging from personal to professional and, of course, the organisational problem of having to deal with such number of persons.

There is also the administrative challenge. We have our Law Centre (within the Rivers State High Court Complex, Port Harcourt) fully manned by workers and they take their salaries from the NBA, Port Harcourt branch. How to manage the resources to meet up all these activities of the NBA is challenging. Every programme of our branch, we raise funds from our members which is also a bit of a challenge. When such funds are in respect of activities that will cover 4,000 persons, the amount of money needed is quite huge.

The excitement is that you have the benefit of speaking one-on-one with past and incumbent national presidents of the NBA. There is the opportunity to meet a cross-section of the members of the NBA at the top echelon. There is also the ability to travel from place to place, especially to know the branches of the NBA and knowing Nigeria better.

You said funds for the branch’s activities are raised from members of the NBA. What of assistance from government, corporate organisations and friends of legal practitioners?

Friends of lawyers in Port Harcourt branch of the NBA and corporate organisations have been assisting us. We had the benefit of sourcing funds from the Niger Delta Development Commission (NDDC) in respect of the Law Centre’s library and the Greater Port Harcourt City Development Authority for the website we want to create and the training of our younger colleagues and computerising our Secretarial Department.

During conferences of the International Bar Association (IBA), the Rivers State Government always assists members to ensure attendance. While constructing the Law Centre of the NBA, Port Harcourt branch, the Rivers State government assisted us with funds. I cannot remember the exact figure because it did not take place in my administration. The three other branches of the NBA in Rivers State (Ahoada, Isiokpo and the latest Bori inaugurated in 2011) are also supported by the Rivers State government, especially the vehicles we use. The administration of Rt. Hon. Chibuike Rotimi Amaechi has been so supportive, but it is not the government’s responsibility to fund the NBA.

You must bear in mind that we need to fuel and maintain the vehicles, as well as pay the salaries of the drivers and other workers at the Law Centre and also maintain the secretariat, particularly the renovation which we are about to go into.

In order to maintain some level of independence, we do not need to go every time to beg government officials for money or favour. Rivers State government donating buses to the NBA branches in the state is not peculiar to Rivers. If you go to other states, the same thing is applicable.

Of the four branches of the NBA in Rivers State, why is Port Harcourt branch the most vibrant?

Let me use the word dominant because the other branches: Ahoada, Isiokpo and Bori,were created out of Port Harcourt branch. In everything we do, we carry them along. There is synergy among the four branches.

The 26th President of the NBA, Okechukwu Wali (SAN), a former Rivers State Attorney-General and Commissioner for Justice, is from Port Harcourt branch. What impact has that made and what is your branch expecting during his tenure?

His election as the NBA President has put Port Harcourt branch of the NBA on the spotlight. We have 100 branches of the NBA, and Port Harcourt branch, being the branch where the president comes from, needs to be up and doing in all its activities and programmes, as well as support the national NBA in all its endeavours.

The coming into office of Okey Wali, SAN, has impacted positively on Port Harcourt branch, and we must strive to meet the expectations of the other 99 branches. We also have the privilege of having the current NBA president domiciled in Port Harcourt and he is within easy reach.

If there is any need for me to call on the president of the NBA, I do not need to travel to Abuja, Lagos or wherever. All I need to do is to book an appointment with him in Port Harcourt and I will be able to see him.

It also comes with certain responsibilities. It means that Port Harcourt branch of the NBA must support all the activities of the national NBA and participate fully, even at great inconvenience and at short notice to us, so that we will not be seen not to support the president.

Your branch of the NBA has just celebrated Law Week, with Rivers State Chief Judge, Justice Iche Ndu, who was represented by Justice Peter Agumagu, the President of the Customary Court of Appeal in Rivers State, urging lawyers to fight for the independence of the judiciary and its financial autonomy, thereby ensuring speedy dispensation of justice, with welfare of judges enhanced. Have you taken up the challenge, since judges cannot speak for themselves?

The independence of the judiciary cannot be compromised because when other things fail, it is the judiciary that everybody will look up to. The judiciary must at all times remain independent. Like ministers in the temple of justice, the judges cannot speak for themselves. Lawyers must speak on behalf of the judges. Judiciary must have some level of financial autonomy, so that they can cater for their peculiar needs.

Whether a judge is independent or not, it depends on the judge. If a judge knows the law and he is not corrupt, chances are that he will be independent in passing judgment. When a judge does not know the law adequately or influenced for one reason or the other, there is the tendency for him to lose his independence and dispense justice, according to the influence that is pervading around him at that material point in time.

It is very important that while we are advocating financial autonomy and independence of the judiciary, the judges themselves should also be independent-minded in the discharge of their duties.

Do you agree that most people resort to self-help and take law into their own hands, since the courts waste time?

I agree to some extent that the delay in the administration of justice may give room for such tendency, but we also know that man is inherently wicked. Unless there is punishment for crimes, some people, whether because there is delay in the administration of justice or not, will take law into their own hands.

During the Law Week of Port Harcourt branch of the NBA, most lawyers disagreed with Rivers State Governor, Chibuike Rotimi Amaechi, who was represented by his Attorney-General and Commissioner for Justice, Worgu Boms, one of your predecessors, on abuse of human rights by Rivers State government agencies, task forces and law enforcement agents. How do you react to this?

It is a very thorny issue. The mode of operation of some of the agencies was condemned by the lawyers. One of the SANs, Sebastine Tar Hon, was of the view that the task forces or agencies do not have the right to impose levies and collect fines.

My view about the issue is that instead of imposing fines on offenders, the officials of the government or law enforcement agents should charge the persons to court. Officials of the TIMA-RIV (Rivers State Road Traffic Management Authority) go beyond imposing fines, by impounding vehicles, deflate the tyres, keep the vehicles on their premises, lock the vehicles and collect the keys which they will not release until you pay the fines or the court discharges you.

There are civilised ways of doing that. You can collect the vehicles’ particulars and charge the offenders to court or the fine can be paid into the escrow account with the vehicle released. If the offender’s position is supported by the court, then he will have his money back.

The things that TIMA-RIV’s officials do in Rivers State are not obtainable outside Nigeria. There are civilised ways of doing things.

Can you let the readers know some of your pleasant and horrible experiences in law practice?

I was called to the Bar in Lagos in 1986, having graduated from the Rivers State University of Science and Technology (RSUST), Port Harcourt in 1985. I served in 1987 at the Legal Aid Council in Ilorin, Kwara State and attached to the Ilorin chambers of Adegboyega Awomolo, now a SAN. Yusuf Alli, also a SAN now, was there with us and was our immediate boss who was taking us though law practice.

I had a horrible experience as a young lawyer the first time I appeared in court in Ilorin. It was a matter I was asked to go and take a date. It was at a high court presided over by Justice Ayo Salami (the suspended President of the Court of Appeal). Imagine a youth corps member who knew nothing about the matter, but I was told to go on.

I read the endorsement/front page of the file which would give an idea of what it is all about, but to read the content and follow what happened was tasking. Justice Salami then gave me one hour. I managed to go ahead and came back to the court after one hour, but shivering. It was a baptism of fire.

Like every other profession, law also has its ups and downs. One of the downs involves a lawyer travelling from Port Harcourt to Lagos or other distant places for a matter only for the court not to sit, but would have wasted time, money and energy. That is why the issue of applying technology in the legal profession is imperative.

One of the pleasant experiences was a land case, coming from my area (Opobo). The elders had looked into the matter, but one of the parties refused. The king and some members of his cabinet also looked into the matter. Still, the same party refused and we had to go to court.

After a long while, my client won. It was found that the land being claimed did not belong to him. I was highly excited because it tested, to some extent, the arbitration procedure of my place. The unfortunate aspect of it was that the house had to be pulled down, but all the same, it is a learning process.

Now, by the grace of God, I have five other lawyers in my chambers. I am not into partnership. Young lawyers do not seem to be patient. They place money first. I have practised law for 26 years. Within the first three years, after being called to the Bar, a lawyer is of little use in the chambers, although there are exceptions. When they come out of the law school or youth service, they do not have the experience.

That is why we have these one- room chambers without books, but will want to survive at all costs, thereby becoming charge-and-bail lawyers. Definitely this is not healthy for the profession of law. It is time to bring back tutelage of between three and five years. The menace of fake lawyers is also worrisome.

Trust and absence of greed are essential for a successful partnership. Surprisingly, when I went to the Commonwealth Lawyers’ Association Conference, I had the opportunity of speaking with a young advocate from Kenya who had just qualified and she said she was absorbed in a small law firm with 100 lawyers. I quickly changed the subject because I cannot see any Nigerian law firm having up to 60 lawyers. Perhaps there may be, but will not be more than one or two.

Many of your friends are now SANs. Are you working towards becoming one?

In any profession or business, from time to time, there is need for self-assessment or self- examination which I do regularly with a view to rendering better services to my clients and to be acquainted with the latest developments in law, thereby acquiring the relevant materials for the chambers in terms of books and ICT components, among others, which will put one in good stead towards the attainment of the exalted rank of the SAN. I am working towards becoming a SAN. It is an honour and a privilege.

I have been having cases at the Supreme Court and other courts, as well as the National Industrial Court (NIC). Let me use this opportunity to say that we are very grateful to the President of the NIC for deeming it fit to establish a division of the NIC in Port Harcourt. Even though that division has not fully taken off, we are hopeful that in 2013, it will surely take off.

We have to thank the NIC president because we had to make a representation to him and he graciously acceded to our request to establish the NIC in Port Harcourt. It was not the efforts of the NBA, Port Harcourt branch alone, the office of the Rivers State Attorney-General and Commissioner for Justice also assisted. The state’s chief judge also provided a space within the high court complex in Port Harcourt for its take-off. The second panel of the Court of Appeal in Port Harcourt will soon start sitting, through collective efforts.

How does it feel to come from Opobo, the ancient town of King Jaja, and how did you start life?

Starting life was very rough. I was born in April 1961. There was civil war between 1967 and 1970. I had to bear the brunt as a young child. I experienced civil war first hand. I suffered from kwashiorkor. My education was interrupted in Opobo. We had to vacate Opobo for Aba and Umuahia in Abia State and some other places I cannot remember. It was quite a horrifying experience and quite challenging. I will not want Nigerians to go into any form of civil disturbance, not to talk of civil war.

During the civil war, there were attempts for us to go back to school, but never worked out because jet fighters and bombers would come and everybody would run. I had my share of injury with the mark from a sharp object still on my left cheek. I thank God that I am alive. When I was hit by the sharp object, everybody around thought I was dead. I was ill, and I could not run like others when the “enemies” plane came and sprayed bullets.

When my people came back from wherever they ran to, they found me in a pool of blood. They took me for dead and I was taken to a hospital and treated. You can see the scar.

When we came back from the civil war, I had to start school all over. First at Opobo, and later at the Salvation Army Primary School, Aggrey Road, Port Harcourt. Thereafter, I proceeded to the Government Secondary School, Okporowo-Ogbakiri, now in the Emohua Local Government Area of Rivers State, for my secondary school education. I will later go for post-graduate programmes, but not in any Nigerian university because of incessant strike actions. Programme of 18 months in Nigeria, you may end up spending four years.

I am very proud to come from Opobo and to be a great, great, great grandson of King Jaja. Anywhere I introduce myself in this country, it leaves no one in doubt of where I am coming from. I am proud of my heritage. I am one of the legal advisers to His Majesty Dandison Douglas Jaja.

What have you learnt from your parents?

During the civil war, my mother, also from Opobo, gave birth to my immediate younger brother and she went to her parents’ place for them to take proper care of her. She was there when the war broke out. We had to run in different directions. We later got united, but my immediate younger brother died during the war. My father died when I was in class 3 and my mother is still alive. She is a retired headmistress.

I learnt hard work, honesty and fear of God from my parents.

How did you meet your wife, what was the attraction and how did you propose to her?

As a bachelor, I travelled to Opobo. I visited one of my friends and I saw this lady who came to see the wife in company with other ladies. The moment I saw her, I knew that she would be my wife. Each time she visited, she would come with many of her friends and it was difficult for me to say anything. We would just share drinks and contacts.

Finally, it was in Port Harcourt that I proposed to her. She said she would think about it. The rest is history. My son (Lawrence) is twelve years old now and he is in JS One. My wife (Esther) is a businesswoman.

The attraction which made me to propose to her: I found her beautiful and she is still beautiful. Very reserved. Her comportment and manners were quite appealing to me. She is very industrious. Since I married her, I had no cause to regret and we have had no quarrel. The secrets are understanding and communication. I have made her to be my friend. She is free to tell me anything at anytime and anywhere. She communicates with me like her friend. We have nothing to hide. One of the causes of tension in the family is when you keep little secrets.

I am a Christian and an Anglican. I see the hands of God in the success of my marriage.

Will you like any of your children to study and practise law?

I will like my son to study and practise law, but I will not force my son or any of my children that will come later by God’s grace. With all the books in my chambers, it will be a thing of joy for other people to manage the chambers. If the persons who will take over the management of the chambers are my children, better.