Category: Interview

Amina Oyagbola is the Human Relations Executive at MTN Nigeria Communications Limited and founder of Women In Successful Careers, WISCAR. Her professional career has spanned over 27 years in the legal, oil, banking and telecommunications sector.
She served as the Head, private banking division of United Bank for Africa and the Head of the Human Resource, Strategy, Standards and Business unit. In this interview with Rita Ohai, she raises the veil on her personal life and shares from her wealth of professional experience.

Can you tell us some of the personal challenges you have had to face in your career?

My professional corporate career life has spanned well over 27 years. There were many points in my career when I actually thought of throwing in the towel and stepping aside but what kept me going was because I had mentors around me.

On reflection, I found it interesting that not a single woman mentored me on my professional journey. In my mind there was something wrong with that because I believe that women who have been able to get to the top of their careers have a unique story to tell which they should share with the younger generation.

This prompted the formation of WISCAR because as women, we have competing priorities. Women are the nurturers, they are the ones who get married and bare the babies and sometimes the pressure from the home front can detract from wanting to pursue a career. Often times, they are forced to make a choice and step aside from corporate work because they cannot cope with all the stress.

Wiscar is a not-for-profit organisation that is focused on young, entry level to mid-career young female professionals who have made a commitment to pursue a career. We as an organisation are focused on providing strategic, structured mentoring.

Nigerian employers complain about the low quality of the staff they are forced to hire and a number of factors have been blamed. How can this issue be addressed?

It is a social economic issue. Our schools are not up to par. I went to Ahmadu Bello University at a time when it was a world-class institution. At that time, getting a Second Class Upper grade in ABU, Zaria meant you could get the same grade in Cambridge University which is exactly what happened to me.

So we need to go back and invest in our institutions by scaling up your youths and the facilities they need for development so that when they come out, they can plug into the mainstream.

The situation we have on the ground right now is that you find that many companies, once they hire young graduates, will have to put in place programmes which form part of their induction process into the organisation. For about 3 to 6 months, the organisation will take them through basic rudimentary things that they ought to have picked up in secondary school.

From a personal experience, I have found that their areas of greatest challenge are the simple things. The young graduates are brilliant but basic skill are lacking such as logic, simple communication and creative thinking. It is a collective responsibility to ensure that the right investments in these young ones are made.

You are one of the few women who have been able to break through the glass ceiling and establish herself in your industry. Why do you think many African women have not been able to cross that threshold?

My experience is that every organisation is looking for the person who can add value and if that person happens to be a young female, they are going to forget very quickly that you are a woman and put you in a position where you can make solid contributions.

Most women, when they go into an organisation are just focused on the task at hand. They tell themselves, ‘I have been given this assignment’ and they sit down, bow their heads and focus on only that task.

However, in order to profit in an organisation, you need to lift your gaze and map out the entire territory and understand the objectives of the organisation and develop a strategic plan to key into that. Do your job, no doubt, but make sure that whatever you are doing is aligned to your ultimate goal because it is only when it pays that you will be able to progress.

Young women need to create that consciousness that lets them know that they are not just workers but are individual volunteers who are offering their services and that they have a unique contribution to make. No organisation can progress without excellent people. They need to understand the male perspective in the company over and beyond the female perspective and also understand that nobody is interested in your gender.

It is about the level to which your level of self-confidence has been built. It is a combination of how you have been nurtured, what kind of influences your parents gave you, regardless of status and wealth. Going past the family environment, there is also the factor of the quality of education received and the social influences.

You find that by the time many of these women are going into the work place, they are already carrying a lot of baggage and their mental modules have been defined. All of these value systems are what they bring to bear into which ever organisation they decide to work in.

So the ability to succeed inside an organisation, given the dynamics of the organisation, are dependent on the individuals inter-personal skills, a deep understanding of the goals of the organisation and ability to mentally and strategically align with those goals.

From your extensive experience as a human resource executive, is the general assumption that women cannot work together true?

What I always try to do is to ensure that, in everything that I do whether it is a proposition or activity, I sell the benefits that the other person would derive from the process. Whether the person likes me or not, I can assure you that they will align always.

I think all human beings are generally complicated. Men are very competitive and women are also competitive among themselves. In the workplace, men and women also compete every day. I think it takes two to tango and everybody has to give and receive a little.

But on the other hand, competition is also healthy. If you observe with all the consumer products that once competition is introduced, there is an awakening. It removes the arrogance and complacency as well as the monopoly mentality. It also pushes people to be more creative.

I believe also that any forward-looking individual will understand that it is better to collaborate with others because you will move faster instead of trying to do it on your own.

As one who heads the employee relations arm of your organisation, what is your experience with sexual harassment?

This sexual harassment issue is a very sensitive one. Does it exist? Yes!

In my experience of over 27 years, I would not be speaking the truth if I say that I have never been harassed. Not in a terrible way but what I would describe as unsavoury and improper overtures being made towards me in a circumstance that was completely inappropriate. However, I have been blessed such that I have not suffered any discrimination by virtue of the fact that somebody had a design on me which was not responded to.

Let me also say that people who behave badly, will behave badly whether they are men or women. But we also know that there is something they call temptation. We should also not put ourselves in a compromising situation. I come from a construct that men should not say that they were tempted because a woman wore a particular blouse.

I believe the men should be able to have self-respect and discipline instead of using that as a lame excuse for bad behaviour but in the same vein, a professional woman need to comport herself in a particular manner which includes the way she carries herself and her dressing because the apparel maketh a man.

If I walk into an office with a miniskirt and a blouse exposing my cleavage, the likelihood of receiving negative overtures will increase but if I walk into the same office looking decent, unless the guy is just extremely badly behaved, he is likely to withdraw. For that reason in my corporate life, I have not suffered a lot.

I do know, based on feedback, that the ladies in the marketing arena are more exposed because they have to go to environments they have no control over to negotiate and sell their products. I did a little bit of marketing and when I noticed that this was the case, I made a very quick adjustment. I made sure that whenever we ladies were going for marketing, we would not go alone. We would go accompanied with preferably a male colleague. So there are things we can do to limit the effect of harassment.

When you are not working as a high-powered executive, who is Amina Oyagbola?

I am a woman sitting in my chair watching a movie, home-based or foreign. I watch Africa Magic sometimes and have a good laugh, especially when my mum is around so I do not even have a choice but to watch it.

If I had the time I would go to the cinema but because that is difficult for me I get a DVD or my son downloads some for me. I watch a movie almost every night, it is my own way of relaxing. The other thing I do is take long walks.

If you were to get home on a good day and you had to cook your family a meal, which would it be, and why?

Would you believe me if I tell you that I can remember the last time I went into the kitchen? (she laughs)

I can’t remember the last time I cooked a meal or entered the kitchen! Except, of course, to make sure that certain provisional items are available. I have a very good cook. I have taught them over time how to make food to both my taste and my husband’s. They can do it better that me. Given the fact that I have a very hectic schedule and also the fact that I actually do not enjoy cooking, but I love good food. Also my husband is not that fussy, he does not require that I should make it personally, so that is it.

Col. Abubakar Umar is a former governor of Kaduna State from August 1985 to June 1988 during the military regime of General Ibrahim Babangida. After his retirement from the army, Umar became Chairman and Chief Executive, Work and Worship (Gas Company) Nigeria Limited, Kaduna.
Umar was an unrepentant critic of the Abacha regime. He joined the G-18 group of politicians that publicly opposed Abacha’s plan to become president. Known for his outspokenness, Umar, who has variously dismissed the concept of a monolithic Northern region as obsolete and unnecessary, in this interview with Assistant Editor, LINUS OBOGO, condemned those asking for power to shift to the North ahead of 2015, insisting that they are not speaking for the region. He also spoke on the helplessness of the Northern leaders to deal with the menace of Boko Haram. Excerpts:

President Goodluck Jonathan said during his recent media chat that the Federal Government could not dialogue with the Boko Haram sect because, according to him, the Islamic sect is faceless. Would you subscribe to the government going into a parley with the Boko Haram?

The President was right in the sense that if you are going to dialogue with anybody, the people must show their faces. Otherwise, with whom is he going to dialogue? Even if the people are interested in dialogue, the fact remains that the Federal Government does not know who to dialogue with. So, President Jonathan was absolutely right.

What do you make of the refusal by the former head of state, General Mohammadu Buhari (rtd), to be Boko Haram’s representative at the dialogue?

Well, General Buhari has since dissociated himself from the news item that he had been chosen by the sect to represent them. He said he had nothing to do with Boko Haram and it is to that extent of dissociating himself with the sect that we should draw the curtain on the issue. You cannot force somebody who is not a member of your group or association to represent you when he does not even know who you are in the first place.

It is true that we all desire peace. But how do we even know that those sending out these messages are doing so on behalf of Boko Haram? It is still not clear that those behind the message of dialogue are representing anybody. If Boko Haram genuinely wants to dialogue, they should come out in the open and say here we are, this is our grouse and this is what we want under so and so conditions. They should make themselves known before anybody would want to dialogue with them or for anyone to want to be representative at a dialogue.

For me, it is the only way to look at the issue. Dialogue has become a mantra where virtually everyone is mouthing it. That is why I maintain that the Federal Government is correct by insisting that it does not know who it is going to dialogue with. Another thing is that no one is sure about who are the people behind those asking for dialogue with the government.

In all sincerity sir, do you think there are convincing grounds for any dialogue with the Boko Haram, given their unrestrained attacks on government’s and Christians’ institutions?

In the first place, as an ex-military officer, when you are confronted by a threat, you will try to do some analysis of where it is coming from. But because of the statements people have been making about who the Boko Haram members are and who they represent, it has been very difficult for us to identify who the Boko Haram elements are and also what their grouses are.

An average southerner believes that Boko Haram and their activities are the handiwork of disgruntled politicians who lost out in the 2011 presidential election. They also believe that because power did not shift to the North, disgruntled politicians from the region have decided to use the Bok Haram to distabilise the country and make things difficult for President Jonathan’s government. I do not think this is true.

Also, an average Northerner believes that Boko Haram is a tool being used by the Federal Government to distabilise the North and ensure that the economy of the region collapses.

For me, neither of the two positions is true. The truth is that we are faced by a group that is a fundamentalist organisation in outlook and which does not have a stable or consistent agenda. The only thing I see happening is that people are being killed and the economy of the North is being totally destroyed. From what is happening, both Moslems and Christians are being killed. How then can we support the theory or the assumption that some Northern politicians are manipulating the Boko Haram? If it were true, the northerners themselves should have been the first people to deal with the alleged politicians behind the activities of the sect.

In the same vein, if the Federal Government is allegedly complicit, according to the position of some northerners, what does Federal stand to gain by destabilising its own component unit of the federation? If the Federal Government is destabilising the North, is the region not a part of the nation?

I think what we must do is to dispassionately look at who the Boko Haram are, what they represent and then forge a united front against the threat. If we cannot identify who they are and what their activities constitute, then we may not be in a position to deal decisively with the danger it poses to the region and the country as a whole.

Some people have tried to rationalise that poverty is a major causal factor that has fuelled the activities of the violent Islamist sect coupled with long years of neglect by the government of the North. How true is this?

There are too many interpretations and suggestions as to the factors responsible for the emergence of Boko Haram. Yes, poverty could be identified as one of the reasons. When the youths are unemployed and no hope of being employed anytime soon, that will certainly exacerbate the kind of crisis we are confronted with. There is a saying that the most dangerous person on earth is that person who has nothing to lose.

These youths are detached from their parents. They are seeking a means of eking out a living. Yet there is no employment anywhere for them. So they are ready and willing recruits by those who do not wish the country well, whether it is Boko Haram, the militants or the kidnappers, poverty has a lot to do with this. It is nationwide.

There is this theory that the North is more poverty-stricken when compared to the South. But from my reading of the situation today, poverty is all over the land. Youth unemployment is all over the land, hopelessness is all over the land. And there is also the issue of corruption. A situation where 90 per cent of the country’s resources are in the hands of only two per cent of the population, it is a recipe for disaster and anarchy in the land.

Today, our universities are producing graduates that cannot be gainfully employed. The general economic situation is so bad and worrisome that we no longer have the middle class. 90 per cent of the country’s population is living below poverty line and that is not a good storyline for the country.

So this kind of dark and ugly scenario has the tendency to put pressure on the idle youths to want to seek for some something violent to engage their time.

With the economy of the North completely on its knees, social life absent in the region, what would you say leaders like you and others have done to resolve the standoff?

You see, today, when people talk of Northern leaders, I do not think they know who they are talking about. Are they talking about the so-called elders, the governors or members of the National Assembly? Who are they referring to? But if you are talking of the elders like most people tend to emphasise on nowadays, you must ask yourself, what do these leaders have at their disposal to be able take on Boko Haram or solve the problem of the sect that the Federal Government does not have?

The Northern leaders people often refer to are usually very difficult to define. Are we referring to religious leaders like the Christian or Moslem heads? And if the answer is yes, do they have the police or the military or the courts. So, if the Northern leaders they are referring to do not have these means, it is difficult to see how they can solve the problem of Boko Haram. The solution to the menace of Boko Haram is the responsibility of all Nigerians, irrespective of geographical or ethnic affiliation or extraction. Unless every Nigerian gets behind the Federal Government to think of ways or means by which Boko Haram can be defeated, we cannot make any headway. So, Northern leaders are not the police, soldiers or the courts. They are civilians like other civilians who have neither guns nor bullets at their disposal.

The elite generally have the responsibility to allow for the growth of the middle class. Unless there is employment and less corruption in the land, that is only when there will be a reduction in the wave of violent crime in the country.

Do you think the Federal Government has been proactive enough in dealing with the scourge of Boko Haram or what should it be doing differently?

Well, government has a responsibility to solve not only the menace of Boko Haram, but all other anti-social vices in the country. And it can do this through empowering and creation of opportunities. All the tiers of government have a responsibility and must demonstrate that in the way they manage their economy to impact on the youth and the unemployed. It is another way to go about it.

Governments at all levels must be seen to be genuinely fighting corruption in such a way that it makes it extremely impossible for just two per cent of the population to control the resources of this country. The ever- widening gap between the rich and the poor is another problem that gives rise to the emergence of violent groups in the country.

There is a saying that if the economy cannot assist many who are poor in like manner, it cannot save the few rich. When people wake up to find out that those who are not contributing to the growth of the economy are making it big, there is the tendency for those who are contributing, but not making it to think of adopting the strategy of their opposite counterparts.

How do you react to the criticism of former President Olusegun Obasanjo against President Jonathan’s handling of the Boko Haram challenge?

In fact, I was very surprised that former President Obasanjo had to take on President Jonathan on his handling of Boko Haram. People are still talking about the operations he ordered in Odi and Zaki Biam that were considered high-handed. People like former Chief of Army Staff, General Victor Malu, threatened to take him to the International Criminal Court for what he referred to as genocide in Zaki Biam.

President Goodluck Jonathan was on a national television sometime ago talking about the massacre of innocent elderly women and children in an operation ordered by Obasanjo. He said after the massacre, nothing came out of the Odi debacle. In the end, the problem of militancy was not solved with the massacre of innocent children and women by the band of soldiers deployed by Obasanjo.

I really do not understand why Obasanjo should think of the use of what he thought was a good strategy in dealing with Odi and Zaki Biam crises to deal with other groups in the country. Does Boko Haram have a fixed location like the militancy in Odi? We are talking about a group that does not have a fixed or permanent address. So why would Obasanjo want Jonathan to adopt the same tactics he used in Odi?

From what is coming out now, it is obvious that Obasanjo’s strategy in Odi and Zaki Biam did not achieve its desired result in curbing militancy in the region, and to that extent, I do not see how the same approach can be applied in dealing with Boko Haram.

Governor Rabiu Kwankwaso of Kano State recently said the South was getting richer at the expense of the North. What exactly do you think was on his mind when he made the statement and is the North truly getting poorer and if so, why?

Governor Rabiu Kwankwas’s statement was ironic. And I want to look at it from two perspectives, one of which is that we are becoming more and more dependent on oil which is not the right strategy for the growth of the economy of this country.

What some countries are doing is to try and diversify their economy from being solely dependent on one source of commodity. Our continuous dependence on oil revenue to drive the economy cannot last for forever. This is for two reasons: world oil prices are bound to suffer the effect of fluctuation and so, it is dangerous to depend on oil revenue to run the economy.

Secondly, the operations of oil exploration are destroying the Niger Delta more and more. So, I feel that there will be less oil activities in the Niger Delta in the long run. From my understanding of the situation on ground today, I feel that what the oil and non-oil producing states should begin to do is to use the little allocations they are getting now to expand their internally-generated revenue base and to look for other sources of funding and not depend wholly on oil revenue.

The North, for instance, should begin to think of expanding its agricultural activities and industry. More and more countries are developing without oil than with oil. There are more states in the South which are non-oil-producing just like the North. So, if they are not crying, I wonder why the North should be crying. The question is that what have the states done with the so-called little revenue they have been getting from the centre?

There are a few states today that are putting their allocations to good use. It is even more worrisome to hear that an oil-producing state is borrowing money to finance projects and pay its contractors. The truth is that very few states are putting their oil money to good use.

What I want to emphasise essentially is that states must diversify their sources of revenue by exploring other sources to boost the economy of their states than continue to wait for handouts from the Federal Government.

Again, I do not know why people try to dichotomize between the North and the South when it comes to the issue of development. The truth is that the entire states of the federation are poorer than they had ever been. How many states are truly developing their economies with the allocations they are getting? There is embezzlement going on in all the states of the federation by their chief executives, council chairmen and their commissioners.

But there is this idea that the North is getting poorer while the South is becoming richer and richer. When the World Bank carried out a survey the last time, it found out that Nigeria was getting poorer. We must not dichotomize on the basis of the North and South when we are trying to analyze the economic performance of Nigeria. It is a fact that today, over 80 per cent of Nigeria’s population are living below poverty line. This percentage cuts across religious, cultural and geographical lines. So, it is fallacious for Kwankwaso to think that the North is poorer than the South.

There are currently agitations across the country for the creation of more states by the National Assembly Committee on Constitution Review. Do you think there are justifiable grounds for the creation of more states?

I do not want to be drawn into the arithmetic of state creation or be engaged in doing a balancing act over which region has less or more states than the other. But what I want to tell you here is that one of the greatest tragedies of our national development today is the creation of so many states. And one of the main causes of our backwardness today is the number of states and local government areas.

If it were possible to cut down on the number of states and bring them to a more manageable size, I would gladly welcome that. Any attempt to continue to create more administrative units simply for the purpose of getting oil revenue from the centre will spell doom in the long run.

We have to be honest with ourselves, how many of these states are really viable? I know that I would have stepped on so many toes by the time this interviewed is being read by those clamouring for a state of their own. But the truth must be said, no matter who may be affected.

However, having said this, it is up to those saddled with the responsibility of reviewing the constitution to look at the various issues dispassionately. In the end, national interest must be seen to be paramount. It is not in the interest of this country to continue to create more administrative units. That is my position. I really do not want to get involved in how many states the North has and how many are in the South East or South West. The more we keep talking about what divides us, the more we remain divided.

Nigeria is 35th most corrupt country in the corruption index released by the Transparency International. Is this a statement about the helplessness or complicity of the government in the fight against corruption?

I am not surprised with the position of Nigeria as the 35th most corrupt country in the world. The truth is, the government has not done enough to end the scourge of corruption. When I say the government, I mean the executive, the legislature and the judiciary.

What we have seen is the occasional dramatic way government advertises its effort at fighting corruption. Once in a while, it will make some arrest and cause it to be shown on a national television after which nothing is heard again. Or the suspect’s file is sent to the EFCC with a lot of fanfare and the man is arraigned in court and there will be a lot of manipulation to delay the process or prosecution of the suspect.

The Federal Government is always quick to point to cases of corruption and then goes ahead to effect arrest. After the arrest, nothing happens and the court begins to play a kind of filibuster and delay the process with a series of adjournments. At the end, the government will beat its chest that it has achieved a feat in the fight against corruption.

Some five years ago, some former governors were arrested on charges of corruption, but as we speak, there has been no conviction. In fact, in the last three years, none of the governors has gone back to court to appeal his arraignment. What that tells you is that the fight against corruption has not been sincere in that respect.

The judiciary is as guilty as the executive of the process militating against the war on corruption. There have been cases of alleged inducements by suspects, culminating in adjournments. Take a look at the National Assembly, they engage in a lot of investigations after which reports are written and they are heard no more. That is the situation we have found ourselves as a nation.

A case in point is the Police Pension Fund. Up till today, we have not been told what went wrong. So, the National Assembly has not been vigorous in getting the executive and the judiciary to do their own part of prosecuting because they are neck deep in corruption themselves. Another instance is the case involving Mr. Farouk Lawan. Up till now the House of Representatives has not told us the complicity of Lawan in the fuel subsidy bribery saga.

You can see that the fight against corruption is done in the most lackadaisical fashion. The three organs of government are not serious about stemming the tide of corruption.

Ahead of 2015, there have been clamours that power should shift. Would you say the agitations are well informed or are rather misplaced and where should power shift to?

As far as I am concerned, it is extremely counter-productive and retrogressive to be harping on power shift all for the sake of power shifting to a small clique from the region asking for power to shift in 2015. If you probe further, when people are asking for power to shift to the North, they are asking that power should actually shift to their own men or to themselves and specifically, to their zone.

When they say power should shift to the North, they have a particular place in mind and exactly where the man from the North comes from. It is either to themselves or to their own men and not just any man from the North. So, they are not fighting for the North, but for their own selfish interest.

Even those advocating that power should remain in the South, they already have a fixed address in mind. It is not often the whole region, but a small section of the region.

So, even when they agree on power shift to the North, they will tell you oh, power should shift to the North East or the North West or North Central. There is a need to be wary of the intentions of this group of power shift advocates.

For me, power should reside anywhere in the country where the best man resides. This country is one and from wherever the best man emerges, the man from the North West, North East, South West, South East or North Central should vote for him. Nigerians should begin to disregard ethnic jingoists camouflaging as nationalists.

Chief Albert K. Horsfall is an administrator, author and politician. He was a Director-General of the State Security Service (SSS) and ex-Chairman of the defunct Oil Mineral Producing Areas Development Commission (OMPADEC). In this interview with Assistant Editor, LINUS OBOGO, he criticises the involvement of the National Assembly in the ongoing constitution review, arguing that it exposes the lawmakers to the temptation of tampering with the organic law of the land to suit their own purposes. He also speaks on Boko Haram and sundry issues. Excerpts:

The National Assembly Committee on Constitution Review is conducting zonal hearings with a view to coming out with what could be described as a “people’s constitution”. What, in your view, should form the plank of the review?

The much talked about constitution review is a good idea. When the polity becomes unduly heated as it is at present, it becomes necessary to carefully examine the framework on which our relationship as a nation is founded in order to ensure that the organic law which governs these relationships is strengthened or modified to ensure that the system functions better. The First Republic constitution lasted for just six years when the Grundnorm was rudely removed by the 1966 coup. We did not sufficiently practice or experiment on that constitution which I still think was the best for Nigeria. When the 1966 coup happened I was a young ASP in the Police Special Branch. The Personal Assistant to the then Commissioner of the Special Branch, was Chief T.A. Fagbola of blessed memory, an outstanding statesman and leader. I recall what he said to me when I congratulated him following that coup believing as I did at that time that it was a good thing that the coup had happened and removed the ‘corrupt’ politicians from office. He said to me “Albert, we will be lucky to recover in 25 years from the tragedy and damage which has happened to this country by this military coup.” I did not really understand and I quietly felt within me a shock and surprise that my boss appeared to support the corrupt political dispensation at that time. Now I realise the truth of Chief Fagbola’s prediction, and it has sadly dawned on me that the damage caused has not lasted for 25 years but continues perhaps up to this date.

The military managed as best they could to pilot the affairs of this country, howbeit inappropriately and inadequately, and in the process of trying to sort things out and give us a fresh constitutional framework, introduced the presidential system of government based on the American model. The problem is, we have not been able to fully understand, follow through and effectively implement the American system of presidential constitution. We have actually followed it somewhat half way and allowed our background and orientation to drive our attitudes towards the presidential system in a confused way. For instance, at the local government level we have completely muddled up the practice as it works in America. Above all, our orientation based on our local background of chieftaincy, Obaship or Emirship, where the chief or traditional rulers as we call them own everything in the land, giving them the right to give to whom they wish and deny from whom they equally wish. That mentality seems to have taken hold on our political leadership at almost all levels. The average office holder in any arm of government – executive, legislative, and judiciary – sees his office as his personal fiefdom where he holds and wields absolute power and authority – including complete authority over public funds, the law enforcement authorities, and so on and so forth. He doesn’t seem to like the notion that the office he holds and the responsibility thereof is held in trust, and that he must be guided by the supreme law of the land, or any law for that matter. The average ruler actually sees the constitution and – the rule of law – as a hindrance to his authority and does his best to avoid using it as guide to perform his function.

The clear expression of my point is symbolised by the practical expression of our corrupt political situation starting from the local government level and even at the political party level. At the highest political level, for instance, the leader of the party – and there are only very few exception in this regard – controls and actually ensures the selection of candidate of his own choice, to go to the legislature at any level. He would in most cases if he were already in government, pay for their election expenses from funds usually available to him through the public purse. As legislators they are sometimes, aside from the regular emolument, paid special honourarium weekly or monthly and accorded other favours and inducements. Worse still, in some states before selection prospective candidates are ‘persuaded’ to sign up to some secret association or ‘cult’, and then finally when ‘elected’ such persons are placed under mentors who are usually senior party or cult members and they monitor their activities, behaviour, etc. to ensure that such ‘legislators’ toe the line prescribed by the leader. In effect, in many cases the emergent legislator’s words and activities are pre-circumscribed to ensure that he keeps in ‘line’. Those who dare not to do so are denied the various facilities stated earlier and marked out for premature retirement from party and perhaps politics altogether. At the end of the day, the average legislator has completely lost his freedom to perform based on his conviction or even on the declared party manifesto or credo. The other restrictive control measures that the top echelon of the political system appears to have embarked upon include the infusion into the judiciary of politicians’ cronies and family members. There is an evidently emerging trend where the family members of leading politicians are progressively emerging as judicial officers. This cannot be accidental or coincidental and this trend needs to be watched carefully.

In making a fresh constitution for Nigeria or amending the existing one, there is need for caution, especially against the prospect of ensuring that an emergent or amended constitution does not serve the select interest of a few over the ordinary Nigerian.

For instance, we are still hearing a lot of talk by those who will play the principal roles in amending the constitution about the issue of immunity for certain office holders. There are indications in a number of states of huge and unjustifiable pension schemes for retired public office holders which will draw deep into the resources of the state which in many cases will serve the interest of young politicians who after retirement will perhaps be on this side of the planet for quite a few more decades. The country is at present undergoing huge burden of corruption in public places. To land ourselves in a situation where a public officer may have abused his authority while in office and still chip in to the public resources even when he has left office, is to say the least, a major challenge to the public psyche. Especially when efforts are being made to ensure through immunity clauses and such other arrangements that errant public office holders will not be held to account for their excesses whilst in office. I did say earlier in this interview that the First Republic constitution which was rudely truncated in 1966 remains our best constitution. Even though a republican constitution it provided a parliamentary and cabinet system of government. The beauty of it is that at the appropriate levels the members of the executive arm are also in the legislature where they function as legislators and become used to the democratic system of operating their offices and particularly of accountability. This is a system where in parliament they would be confronted with facts in open debate and give public answers which the ordinary citizen has access to and be informed of the manner in which he is being governed. It is my belief that the national interest and the interest of the ordinary citizen will best be served under the parliamentary and cabinet system of government where the public officer will openly account for his activities.

Should the legislature make, review or amend the Nigerian Constitution?

My sincere views are that the legislators by themselves cannot be the competent organ to make or amend the Nigerian Constitution. We have all been crying wolf about the military made constitution. Bad as that may be, one can regard the military in the circumstance, as a disinterested party. Can the legislators be seen or regarded as such a disinterested party? For them therefore to be the ones to make, review or amend the constitution which is to be regarded as their guide for making ordinary laws and other regulations to my mind is clearly inappropriate. As such I will like to thank the legislators for their present initiatives on this matter but I would advise them to handover the matter of constitution making to the appropriate authority – the people. I wish to emphasise that neither the executive, that is the presidency, the legislature nor the judiciary who will be the ultimate instrument to implement, practice and interpret the constitution should be the body to make, review or amend it. Such attempt by any of these bodies will expose them to the temptation of tampering with the organic law of the land to suit their own purposes – which makes them masters and not the servants of the people! They should expose the process to a national referendum or a national conference of ordinary Nigerians who will produce the organic laws under which they choose to be governed.

One issue that has dominated national discourse in recent times is the clamour for state police. Is Nigeria ripe for the establishment of state police?

The Governors Forum made a statement through their chairman that it is their wish, and placed it on the table for constitutional amendment. The South West is known to be very strong proponents for state police, and to some extent the South East governors have taken a similar position as the South West. In the South-South the vocal minority seem to be advocating the same. I would like to sound a word of caution on the issue of state police. Many of those at the helm of political leadership may be doing so to serve some selfish interest. The truth is that the ordinary policeman is there to protect the average Nigerian citizen. You do not need to go far in order to confirm that even at present there is a tendency of the strong to use the police to oppress or suppress the weak. Such excesses are so far generally checked by the fact that the police is monolithic; with its hierarchy stretching up from the community level to the Inspector-General who is in the Abuja headquarters. Therefore the average aggrieved Nigerian citizen can start with the constable in his community to deal with his grievances at his community or local village, and without much cost can refer his matter from the constable to the DPO, from the DPO to the area command, from the area command to the state commissioner of police, from the state commissioner of police to the zonal AIG and eventually to the IGP. He can do all of these without much cost except the piece of paper in which he writes his complaints or the transport cost which will take him to all of these places to verbally lodge his complaints. The Nigeria Police may be accused of being plagued by a nest of corruption but its hierarchical arrangement offers some of the best opportunities to the under privileged Nigerian to make his case and be heard and indeed to ultimately receive justice. But when you remove this protection from the ordinary citizen you are further widening or stretching the thin layer of protection which the ordinary Nigerian citizen has so far enjoyed.

Judging from what the new breed of politicians have so far enacted from 1999 to date, it will be interesting to note that the tendency has been to consolidate power in their own hands and thereby give less and less room to the ordinary citizen to express himself and exercise his God-given rights of citizenship. During the period when in the South-South zone, for instance, cult and youth militancy activities evolved, the ugly gunfights, killings and operation of cult members and youth militancy which were taking place under the full glare of the governments of this zone; the police and other security agencies were there but could not take any meaningful action. This is because the heads of these formations had been intimidated or brought under the subjection of the local political leadership, and all these crimes were openly taking place with no one to counter them.

The enforcement and monitoring authorities were intimidated by the real or implied threats of one form of sanction or another and so connived, turned the blind eye or totally ignored their duty to the state and citizenry.

Even the media which during the Abacha era rose up stoutly to defend the interest of the ordinary citizenry were for whatever reasons, for almost three years, unable to effectively expose these ugly incidents of killing and maiming which were taking place extensively in some of these states. So the country and the outside world were kept in the dark throughout the embryonic stages of these ugly developments.

Many of our citizens of the present generation are not familiar with what went on in the First Republic when we had local government police, native authority (NA) police, native court, etc. In those days the political leader or some powerful Emir or Oba will direct the police – especially the NA police – to subjectively arrest a political opponent or anyone who insulted them or dared to question their excesses. For any flimsy excuse imaginable persons were locked up contrary to the law. In the North as in the West the powerful politicians and traditional heads held sway!

The NA, local government police and the native courts exercised cruel and crude forms of ‘justice’. There was the report, in those days, from one of these areas where the president of a customary court was in his bathroom, and having been informed that a prominent member of his party had been arrested and sentenced to three months in prison in another region, for which a revenge arrest had been made in his (the customary court’s jurisdiction), shouted back from his bathroom “I sentence the man you arrested to six months imprisonment.” He thus passed sentence on an alleged suspect he had not even seen! Let Nigerians and our present day politicians not forget that all these excesses and more brought about the crises which truncated the life of the First Republic and the series of unpleasant events which followed thereafter!

Even in the then Eastern Region where they did not have the local government police, the Nigeria police were under pressure to toe the line of the political leadership. But the situation in Eastern Nigeria compared to the rest of the other regions was generally different because there, the Nigeria Police headed by the CP based in Enugu received his operational orders from the Lagos-based IG. And depending on the stature of who was commissioner of police, the police force in the then Eastern Nigeria generally performed well and operated to protect the interest of all and sundry. One will readily recall the tussle for control of the police force in the then Eastern Nigeria between the CP’s office and the Premier of the then Eastern Nigeria. There were such tough officers like Ikeazor, otherwise called Keazor. Or the likes of the ‘No nonsense’ Commissioner Ibekwe of the Onitsha province usually referred to as ‘MA Natural.’ By the strength of such distinguished officers the interest of the ordinary citizen was generally protected and the law was applied somewhat properly in the interest of the common man in the then Eastern Region.

But come to think of it, the series of crises and violent eruptions since 2007 resulting in youth militancy and deaths sometimes based on tribal and religious lines; were these issues being handled by a state or regional police per se the resultant effect would obviously have been different and the breakup of the federation of Nigeria might have come sooner than 2015 allegedly predicted by the Americans. Nor would the country have adequately dealt with the emergent Boko Haram and the earlier situation of Maitatsine had we tackled them under the rubric of state police or regional police. I would like all and sundry to carefully consider this matter, especially the governors, some of whom are at present at the forefront of the advocacy of state police. Let me remind them that some of them may become the victims of the state police in the hands of the very individuals whom they may have installed as their replacement as governors, but who may thereafter become their political opponents and bitter enemies, and may like to have them in jail.

The House of Representatives recently threatened to impeach President Goodluck Jonathan over the poor implementation of the 2012 Appropriation Act. What is your take on this?

The impeachment threat by the National Assembly appears to have become a political weapon in recent times to shake-up the executive arm of government whenever it is felt that that arm is either not performing up to expectation or is not taking the legislative arm of government seriously. It was threatened several times during the Obasanjo administration. But as always, the legislators who all belong to one political party or another know how to find accommodation to resolve their differences. I am sure that even this time around they will come back together to resolve whatever differences they have with one another.

How do you deal with the political controversy between the North and the South-South?

The North and South-South had in the past formed close alliance on various national issues whether at election time, constitution making time, or collaborating in the Nigerian Civil War. In politics, Northern candidates for president or other national offices will normally always expect to get the backing of the South-South. Similarly, the South-South would usually expect to receive the backing of the North in political and other national issues that affect the South-South. For instance during the Civil War, Northern soldiers and politicians were the backbone of South-South support and creation of states. The North was our main ally that executed the Civil War in collaboration with the South-South and, of course, our close friends from the South-West. So the Obasanjo-convened National Confab was the first time when the South-south began to realise that the North was actually unwilling and unable to give political support to the South-South on the twin issues of getting a president from the South-South and on the issue of resource control which were the two main planks the zone agitated for at that conference. Delegates from the South-South were rather puzzled at the vehemence of the opposition of the North to their cause. Somehow, by providence and divine intervention, the South-South now has the president and the presidency in the person of Dr. Goodluck Jonathan. The political election that led to his victory at the polls was free and fair and the candidate won the election roundly. There was no question about that. And thankfully the North actually voted enmasse for Goodluck Jonathan.

The administration of Governor Rauf Aregbesola has been in the saddle in Osun State for two years, in this interview with DAPO THOMAS in Osogbo, the governor discusses the accomplishments of his administration, South West regional integration, his relationship with his predecessor, Olagunsoye Oyinlola, and sundry national issues.

Can you do a reflection of your activities within this period and confess if you are satisfied with the progress made so far.

Let me start by saying that we have rescued the state from financial insolvency, we have created awareness, first for the state and citizenry and a new image for the state through a phenomenal rebranding. The rebranding of the state is not just in giving the state a new image, a new appearance, new symbols, but we reinvigorated the history, the culture of the people to rekindle a value system that was almost extinct. The combination of all of these inspired the populace to a height that was never expected. Alongside with that, we initiated a youth empowerment scheme that was unparalleled. Yes, naysayers and some critics pooh-poohed our efforts at youth empowerment engagement but observers of social affairs will no doubt agree that the engagement in itself is commendable not only in terms of preventing social disorderliness and vices, it equally redirects the energy of the youth to social and community work, which are not only desirable but are very much necessary. Nobody will deny the fact that hitherto the entire environment was filthy, depressing and unattractive. With the engagement of the “O Yes” Cadets and our sanitation exercise, environmental cleanliness, vegetation control by the roadside, we now have a cleaner society, hygienic environment and beautiful state. Those are the fall outs of the fact that these youth engaged in such essential community and social services, would have been indolent had they not been so engaged.

So, we must situate all of these in the overall assessment of our intervention. From there, we moved to other critical areas. As we are doing the rebranding, the rescue from insolvency, the engagement of the youth, we launched an ambitious and massive food production programme. As I am talking to you the capacity of our people to engage in food production, that is, farming has been multiplied in several folds. We initiated collaboration with the Nigerian Railway Corporation (NRC) for free freight of agricultural produce and commodities from Osun to Lagos and free freight of manufactured products from Lagos to Osun. During festivals, our citizens or friends, or residents are freely transported from Lagos to Osun and vice versa. That initiative was intended to spur and promote agricultural development or food security essentially. As our commitment to promoting functional education, we are redeveloping basic infrastructure all over our schools. We had a summit on education which led to the following agenda: (1) Basic infrastructure development. The school buildings are to be redeveloped completely. We have started that and the building programme. (2) We are of the view that a well nourished child is more prepared for serious learning than a malnourished child. So, for students in primaries one to four, we provide free meal properly prepared by certified and well-trained food vendors and the meal itself is very rich in mental building, physical development nutrients. I know that they are given carbohydrates, protein in fish and chicken and meat and fruits. So, the children are properly fed for good development of their body, mind and brain so as to be good adults from that formative age. They develop the capacity to learn and utilise the knowledge so acquired as adults when they get to that stage in life.

Road infrastructure is being pursued at a rate that is not common. Besides, we have a programme for urban renewal in virtually all the ancient towns. For your information, this state has the highest number of towns with over a thousand year history. So, all such ancient towns of the Yoruba history are already identified for renewal. The process is almost being concluded in terms of the consultancy for the renewal. We are set to upgrade one kilometre radius of each of the town centres to a standard modern town that would be the pride of all Yoruba and even the black race. It will be expensive but we are undaunted. We are almost concluding the general assessment of that.

On the issue of water, I read of a report involving the previous administration, I mean the Oyinlola government, where chemicals were bought in advance of 10 years and yet you are saying that some areas never had water for up to 50 years. What is the true situation?

By my own style and approach, I will rather not comment on the weaknesses and inadequacies of the immediate past administration. A Commission of Inquiry has been set up to review such misdemeanour. So, I will rather give the commission the opportunity to expose the atrocities committed by that administration than for me to spend my time over flogging a horse that is, though dead, very scandalous. Let us leave it like that. All I know is that the capacity of our water works has just been raised from what you can call zero level to about 50%. And work is on-going to have it to attain the full capacity for water production. What you have just said is true, that payments were made for 10 year-supply of chemicals in advance but the truth is that both the company that was so paid and those who awarded such ridiculous contracts never intended for the chemicals to be supplied. In the first instance, there was no functional water works to take delivery of such chemicals and the chemicals were never supplied up till now. It is a messy and quite disturbing scenario.

In health, we are making efforts as well to meet the challenge of achieving our goals. Our security is very important. For the first time in Osun State, we have a special squad dedicated to fighting crime by prevention and actual engagement of criminals. We have not reached the target we are anticipating but we have some APC’s (Armoured Personnel Carrier) to engage them. We don’t pray we have high scale criminal activities but in case, we don’t wait till when you are surprised by hardened criminals. As part of our efforts to prevent crimes, we have procured some APC’s as well as several patrol vans to prevent criminal disturbance of the security and stability of our state. Those are the things I can run through for now.

The second aspect of your question on whether I am satisfied or not; the truth is that when you compare what we have done with what was the practice in this part of the country and our region, I want to say things are really looking up. But in my own perception, we are still very far away from the target we have given ourselves even though we know that much has been done at the level of engaging the people. We have done a lot within the period of being in the saddle. But in terms of personal satisfaction, I will say I am yet to get to the level when I can say yes I am satisfied.

You rode to power on a popular mandate sealed with a legal victory that was massively celebrated by people of Osun and even beyond. Considering this scenario, there were high expectations by the people for your government to quickly deliver the dividends. Would this not make you to be impressionistic rather than being realistic in trying to meet up with these expectations?

I must tell you straight that I understood very well the sociological, political and economic basis for the expectations of the people on our assumption of office. Very clearly, I have no doubt in my mind why it had to be uproarious. Here are people who for 90 months were saddled with a government that never knew why it was there. A government that understood power purely from the authoritarian prism, and that left the society in a physiologically destabilized condition. The whole environment before our coming was harsh economically, harsh psychologically, harsh socially and harsh in terms of security. Things were extremely difficult to the point that any change would have been celebrated in a similar manner. Any change at all, whether vacuous or real would have been celebrated. And this we captured during the campaigns. We made promises that were not just seen as alternative but met the expectations of the people for a meaningful life. So, our assumption was long expected. As long as our travails lasted it did not in any way affect the zeal, aspiration and the desire of our people for a government that would be truly their own. If you look at our experience from the day we made the first move to engage the people of Osun in the process of change and confront the incumbent administration at that time, from that very day it was a battle. Our emergence therefore was a relief over bottled repression, caged aspiration and failed expectations. As for me, it was an opportunity to demonstrate the capacity to rule that was acquired over a long period of association with humanists, pragmatic executors of meaningful and purposeful government. If we want to outline what has been our approach to it, honestly we have endeavoured to domesticate all that we have acquired theoretically from our old humanist ideologues and the experience we garnered from our exposure in Lagos from one of the best public financial experts in Nigeria. So, it is a combination of these that had inspired us into this rescue operation.

I am not under any pressure or illusion of impressionism. I am focused, determined and quite conscious of the programmes that must be executed, projects that must be implemented and ideas that must guide both the programmes and the projects.

In your inauguration speech two years ago, you made copious references to the late Chief Obafemi Awolowo’s legacy. You extolled Chief Bisi Akande’s achievements in office. And you identified with Bola Tinubu’s performance in Lagos. Will your admiration for these people not affect the evolution of an Aregbe political model that will also be a reference point in governance in the future?

I don’t know how those other people whose performances I referenced in that speech perceive themselves, I can only tell you how I perceive myself. I see myself as a continuum for the progressive current in Yorubaland in Western Nigeria. And that current cannot be stagnated. If you could recall the title of my speech, it is about continuing the process. That actually was the theme of the speech. There was a point in time where the ultimate leader, Chief Awolowo, working on our own tradition and culture began a movement of modernisation along the welfarist model of development. People like Bola Ige, Olabisi Onabanjo, Lateef Jakande, Adekunle Ajasin advanced the process. This was what Baba Akande and Asiwaju Tinubu tremendously advanced as well.

I, therefore, must not situate myself outside that course of development. It is not about me. If history realises that I deserve annotation, I am not averse to it. But my own mission is the continuation of the progressive current that promises freedom for all, life more abundant. We must be clear on this. It is not about me, it is about a course of action that our people have taken for granted as their own tradition. Chief Awolowo only codified it with superlative government structure and administration. And successive leaders of the political tendency have been cushioning the envelope within the limit of time and resources available to them. It is that tradition that I am advancing. The mantra, the slogan that encapsulates the whole philosophy is the slogan of the AG in the 50’s that summaries it. So, whatever history decides to make of me in the process I am willing and ready but I know I will not be found wanting in total commitment to that tradition.

You have embarked on massive development of the state from all fronts, but people are entertaining fear that some of the projects may end up being abandoned. How do you assure them that this will not happen?

I don’t need to assure anybody. I believe we are factors in the historical process and will be marked down by our promises and deliveries. I am too committed to the ideals of progressivism. I am committed to firing the people to increase their production for wealth for themselves and societies. That I don’t even look at the possibility of failure in any of the things we are doing. I am looking to God for guidance and support. Outside the role of the Divine in guaranteeing success, I did not see why and how any of what we are putting together will fail.

I can understand why there could even be any anxiety. It is because for 90 months, a minimalist administration was there, looting the treasury, violently abusing the psyche of the people, and celebrating lacklustre performance. And as such, the people having been used to such poor governmental activities and performance will want to be afraid of government interventions. Those projects are quite daunting and ambitious but like I have said we are not in any way intimidated. We have put together a team of talented administrators, managers, leaders, well-groomed and highly experienced performers that God’s willing none of our projects will be abandoned.

Is your regional integration campaign a covert agenda for Yoruba autonomy within the Nigerian state or a clarion call for Yoruba awakening. Either way, what is your objective or agenda? And is it not a distraction for your government?

Well, I don’t know how it could be a distraction. In the first instance the states are mere administrative units for our people. The states are not atomised groups. But be that as it may, I will tell you that the Yoruba are the most homogenous ethnic nationality in Nigeria. No Yoruba man is limited to wherever history has found him. Be it in Abeokuta, Ikare, Ijebu-Ode, Omu Aran or wherever. All Yoruba are interrelated. You cannot find a Yoruba person anywhere in Yorubaland that does not have a link with some far-flung settlements and locations in the territory of the Yoruba. What that simply tells you is that we have multifarious relationships and connections. If for instance, the Yoruba man in Lagos will have his roots in Kabba, and the Yoruba man in Kabba is equally and effectively related to another man in Abeokuta, and so on, then it will be clear to you that definitely regional integration is an idea that is relevant for the region as well as the state. No state can really grow in this our sphere of Western Nigeria without collaborations with the others. Don’t forget that the people are already culturally linked, connected and customarily united. Then, there is no way you can prevent them from interacting because they have been interacting since the beginning of time. If you don’t see the clarity of what I am saying, I will assist by further elucidation. We are the most politically, crisis-ridden nationality in Nigeria. For federalism within ourselves, Yoruba fought among themselves not a war of enmity but a war of autonomy within the Yoruba federation for almost 100 years. Not independence against the other Yoruba sub-ethnic groups but at least to achieve ethnic determinism ditto for the Ijesha, ditto for the Igbomina, ditto for the Awori and other sub-groups. The people who for independence and freedom resisted over lordship from any of their kith and kin, no matter how superior, will readily combine to fight any aggressor with the same zeal. This internecine war for federalism however created such movements or has resulted in the mix-up so much that no Yoruba man can correctly or accurately claim affinity to just a particular space. All Yoruba are as related in wherever they are now as they are connected to several other locations within the Yoruba territory. So, that tells you clearly that the only way to mobilize effectively the Yoruba people for economic, political, social and even spiritual advancement is to encourage collective participation of all. That is what can effectively stir the spirit of the people for extraordinary performance. But that is on the academic level.

Is there any alternative to big market? Of course, none. The essence of globalization is market. The essence of the voyages of some 1000 years ago, the adventures of people like Columbus and Lander brothers were all about market. Mungo Park and others were looking for cheap raw materials and that tells you that market is the objective of all these adventures. If nations are established and developed to increase the economic potentials of the people, then regional integration can only enhance the capacity of the individual states for production, economic advancement, spiritual growth and general social advancement rather than being a limiting factor. It is for that reason that I said I am committed to promoting integration, mobilizing my people and encouraging my colleagues in other states to see it as the greatest way of rallying our people for serious development and growth.

Are you in anyway satisfied with the level of support from your colleagues because I can see that you sing the old Western Region anthem at all state functions alongside the national anthem. But I don’t think this is being done in some of these other states.

I have not seen anything from my colleagues to indicate that they are not committed. All of them are committed. I can confidently tell you that we are all committed. There might be local issues that could be responsible for some slow responses but I am very confident that once all these obstructions and obstacles are eliminated, we will all move at a pace that will surprise Nigerians. The need for integration is historical. I have told you we have Ago Ijesa in Abeokuta, Oke-Ijebu in Owo, Egbatedo in Osogbo. There is no part of the Yorubaland that is excluded from the others, we are homogenous entity. It is even beyond individuals. Regional Integration is an idea and a process that is naturally on. Nobody can stop it. Whoever attempts to stop it will be swept by the force of the idea and process. Really, it is a question of time before we all see a total embrace of this idea. People will trade, people will interact, people will be forced to determine what to produce there to complement and supplement one another.

What you should even realize is that Lagos today has turned to be a major focus of Yoruba economic growth. And that in itself drives integration. Lagos is a Yoruba territory regardless of the poor knowledge and understanding of some people. The activities happening daily in Lagos are enough to energise the process of integration and even Nigeria. Lagos supplies three quarter of what is consumed in the entire West African sub-region. The Yoruba speaking parts of Nigeria really have to concentrate on meeting fifty percent of that for it to be economically independent. So, how can you have such a resource within your territory and you want to be deviant? You don’t want to exploit it. So, both the history of our people and economic advantage, that is in integration, have made it an irresistible idea to the region. Whoever is not enamoured must be an enemy of the people.

But I believe you know we have two isolated cases: Ondo and Edo States. I know the Ondo scenario is political. Let us discuss the Edo scenario which of course is structural. The Midwest was a sub-component of the Western Region. In the Second Republic we had the LOOBO states with Bendel State also being integrated into the Western political configuration. But with the new geo-political arrangement that aligns Edo with the South-South zone, don’t you think there is a structural problem here?

I don’t even see any problem here. You know in the real and imaginary spheres of existence, there can’t be a strict boundary, you have overlaps. So, the question of Edo fits into that. Yes, Edo is presently in the South-South geo-political zone of Nigeria but the people of Edo know where they are in terms of the economy and their relationships. It is by far easier for the Edo man to be in Ibadan, Ilesa, Lagos than the other way round. What is the population of Edo people in the areas in which they are now tied to by the zonal arrangement? Besides the attraction of oil, what is it that connects Edo to those other people in the zone where it is now? It is not even Edo alone. The same thing goes for Delta. At the fruition of all these efforts, it will be clear where really the organic linkage between those who are in the marginal zone, just as there would be an overlap at our own end, so would there be an overlap at the other end. There is no fixed boundary. What determines where you will be in the ultimate territorial definition of connection will be cultural, economic and political. There are those who speak Yoruba in Edo and Delta. Just as it is clear that those who are not even speaking Yoruba have a lot of cultural linkage with us. So, besides the political linkage, there is cultural and spiritual affinity. And above all, history cannot be dismissed. That in Benin five out of ten up and coming people will want to be in Lagos and not in other places.

The issues are so clear, particularly on integration that anyone expecting a new thing that will contradict that project will simply be rejected by their people because economically that is the only way out, politically there is no question about what should be, culturally, it is obvious that we are a people united by history, by customs, by culture and values. It will be difficult for any current occupier of any political position to change that.

Still talking about your predecessor (Oyinlola), you seem to be pursuing your crusade against him with an inexplicable passion. What exactly is the problem? Is it a personal thing or simply an official issue?

In what way could it be personal? I have no personal problem with Oyinlola. Yes, I ought to because of the way he handled things here but in all honesty, I have nothing personal against him. Since I assumed office here, I have not in any way taken things personal with Oyinlola. There is nothing personal to him that I have not allowed since I came in. If I am passionate about my commitment to the people of Osun, it is because that is my nature. I don’t do things haphazardly. I am a total man. In the course of it my passion could be misinterpreted to mean animosity against anybody. I have nothing personal at all against him.

During the sitting of the Commission of Inquiry, you saw how he mobilised people to the venue. I could have done the same thing but I did not because there was no need to do so since it was not personal. I must confess though that I never liked his style of administration because it is shallow and without mission. I have no personal grudge against him. I see him as somebody who is eager to rule the people but lacks the capacity to do so. Such a person deserves our pity and sympathy more than hatred and animosity. I see beyond his limitation. He is indeed a man handicapped by circumstances to be a legend or a leader.

In your six-point integral action plan, the word “banishment” intrigues me. Is it that by the time your tenure is over, four years or eight years, there will be no poverty again, no unemployment again, no hunger again in Osun? Please explain.

That is the goal. Every serious leader must have ideals. Idealism is the lubrication of the engine of advancement. Without an ideal through which a leader can stimulate self and people, there can’t be growth and advancement. It is my desire to banish poverty, hunger, unemployment and other ills in the society. So how far I go in that mission will define me.

What has been the attitude of the elite and the opposition to the sweeping changes you are making in the state?

I know the people are so enthusiastic about us, our projects, our programmes, and our policies. If there is any source of joy, inspiration and fulfilment for me, it is the people. They are forever enamoured of us, supportive of our administration and defensive of our programmes. The people are the greatest source of encouragement for my administration.

I will not say the elite are less committed to us. A tiny few are still belly-aching over the loss of power and their irrelevance in the scheme of things. To those people you must expect such attitude because having been removed from reckoning; they are bound to be as aggrieved as they are. But with time, they will get to know that what exists today is not in any way comparable to the regime they first had. Now, there is more freedom, better security, the economy is gradually improving, life is getting better. There is no person in this state today that does not enjoy one benefit or the other from the government directly or indirectly including even the opposition. If your benefit does not come from the school children, it will come from the social services such as roads, security, or support for the Agba Osun. We reduced school fees in higher institutions by 50 percent. We are giving students bursary of almost 500 percent of what they used to get. Honestly, I don’t see any living human being in the state that does not have a benefit no matter how little from this administration. So, with that I don’t think we have any genuine opposition outside what I can call parochial sectarian interests.

Is your closeness to all the religious leaders from the state such as Pastors Adeboye and Ashimolowo and other notable Muslim and traditional leaders, and the practice of allowing the three religions to pray at state functions a strategy for promoting peaceful co-existence among the adherents of the three religions?

There is no effort at promoting unity, harmony and peaceful co-existence among the various religions that can be too much. But really, it is not anything extraordinary. Our people are never bigots. The Yoruba are never religious bigots. We are by nature tolerant of religious differences before the advent of modern religions. In the same home, you can see Osun, Oya, Sango worshippers, Christians and Muslims. That the various gods are traditional won’t mean they are the same. If that is the cosmogony of our people where would we therefore say we inherited our intolerance from? We are a people given to life in a very simple and beautiful form. We are not in any way attracted to tension, crisis and disequilibrium on matter of faith. The Yoruba have left spiritualism to the realm of Divinity. They don’t think it is the responsibility of man to superintend the choices of another in that regard. Our religious differences have nothing to do with politics. It is simply a reflection of the cosmogony of our people. Yoruba do not pretend to know the hereafter as much as they want to know the here and now. We will not want to provoke crisis based on what we don’t fully understand.

Abia State and its governor, Theodore Orji, have been dogged by a string of controversies lately. The latest involve issues of the oil wells ceded to it, and the aborted swearing-in of Justice Ifeoma Jumbo-Ofo recently named to the Court of Appeal. Associate Editor, Taiwo Ogundipe, met him to talk about these and other issues – including the perennial problem of the city of Aba.

LET us start with the controversy surrounding the oil wells. The Rivers State government has been agitating that its oil wells have been wrongly ceded to Abia and Bayelsa States. What is your response?

I didn’t cede the oil wells to myself. The oil wells were legally and legitimately ceded to us by the appropriate body. I know that I don’t have any problem with Rivers State. The oil wells were ceded to us because the appropriate body saw they belong to us. It was an injustice that was rectified. If anybody feels aggrieved about the development, the court is there to sort out the issue just like they sorted the issue of Cross River and Akwa Ibom States. But as of now, I don’t have any problem with Rivers State and I don’t think they have any problem with us.

Does the transfer of the oil wells suggest there would be an improvement in the revenue of the state?

Yes of course. That’s what we expect.

Were unaware that you were supposed to have these oil wells?

The issue didn’t start today. The state had been fighting this battle before I came on board as governor. The appropriate body considered the matter and saw that our claim was genuine and gave the oil wells to us.

We want you to comment on the controversy surrounding the appointment and aborted swearing-in of the lady judge from the state.

I don’t have any comment. I’ve done what I’m supposed to do as governor.

Let us now talk about Aba. The issue of lack of infrastructure in the city has always been in the news and it seems to be defying your government. There have been all kinds of protests and stories. What have you personally found to be issue?

Aba is the commercial nerve centre of this area and it has made news in the areas of trade and commerce; and that is why it attracts attention. Just like Aba is popular in trade and commerce, it has its problems. The problem of Aba essentially is that of infrastructural decay. I did not cause the decay. I inherited much of it. These include bad roads, filled-up drains, refuse disposal. These are some of the major problems in Aba. What I’ve been doing is to make my own impact; to ensure that the drains are opened up so that water will always find its way; to also ensure that the bad roads are repaired and new ones constructed; to ensure that refuse is carted away on daily basis for the environmental health of all the people who live in Aba; and to also ensure that the environment is conducive for them to do their business by making sure that security is provided for them. These are the things that we are doing.

No government can come and repair all the roads in Aba or solve all these problems at a go. It is for each government to make its own impact. And I believe that the impact I am making right now will make it easier for other governments that are to come because I’m laying some foundations in Aba. Number one, I’m building solid roads, very solid stone-based roads. I’m putting legacy structures in place in Aba. I’ve built an overhead bridge in front of the Aba Polytechnic. It wasn’t there before. We are repairing the bad roads with good quality materials and by good contractors. We are also trying to sanitise and modernise the markets.

However, we need the assistance of the inhabitants of Aba to make these things progress. The people in Aba don’t obey rules and regulations. They embark on indiscriminate building of houses and shops. They even build on waterways, blocking the drains, thereby causing erosion and flooding in Aba. They like to leave the markets and trade in residential buildings. They convert residential buildings to markets and shops. When we build motor parks, they find it difficult to go in there. Rather they would stay on the roads, blocking everywhere.

These are the problems we have been having in Aba, which I’m fighting against. I know that if discipline is instilled in Aba, the other things will follow.

You have mentioned the attitude of the citizens and all the problems they have been creating. Why are you finding it difficult to enforce the laws against the recalcitrant ones?

We are doing our best and I think the approach we have adopted, to me, is one of the best. This is democracy. It is not a military regime. We are enforcing the regulations as par due process and extant laws. The laws are not meant to hurt the people. The laws are meant for their own welfare and we enforce them in a way that they will not hurt the people drastically. And they are complying. But the one that is most annoying is the attitude of those who know very well that before you erect any building, you have to get approved building plan. They disregard that and build on drains and waterways. And we have said that once we start construction of roads and renovation of the bad ones, any building or shed seen blocking the drains or waterways will have to go. We will enforce that.

A group of lawyers were recently reported protesting publicly in Aba against bad roads. What is your reaction to that?

If you were there to see what happened, you would have seen that it was sponsored. The so-called protest was carried out by some members of the Nigerian Bar Association (NBA), Aba branch minus other branches such as NBA Umuahia, NBA Ohafia, NBA Isiala Ngwa North and South, as well as the others. The protest was carried out by that insignificant branch in Aba. The other branches had dissociated themselves from that show because they realised it was sponsored. You can’t imagine lawyers, learned people – that’s what they call themselves, go to buy raincoats and boots to start demonstrating during rainy season. If you are not happy that the roads are bad, as an educated person, you know what to do. You engage the government in dialogue to know what is happening. If it is roads that are owned by the Federal Government, engage the necessary agency, and when that fails, then you can go on rampage, the kind that they embarked on. What the NBA Aba did was sponsored. As I told you, the other branches have dissociated themselves from that and they have written letters of apology to me. NBA Aba has been antagonistic of this government because they are being used by my detractors. They are easy prey in the hands of my detractors. If it is something that is universal in Abia, it is NBA Abia State and not NBA Aba alone that should have taken action. It is not only in Aba that you have bad roads. There are also bad roads in other certain areas in this state. So, why should it be NBA Aba that was demonstrating about bad roads in Aba? Why don’t they demonstrate about bad roads in the whole of Abia State or Nigeria? Their demonstration was sponsored, as I said.

Some people are also complaining about the state of markets in Aba. Some say they are generally old and dilapidated. What are you doing about markets in the town?

Those markets are the ones I inherited – Ariara and the others. What I’m doing now is to modernise them by building more stalls in the market and urging the traders to go into the markets. We have plans also to build a modern market in Aba by private partnership arrangement. We have gone very far and it will be a model if we realise that. The ones that I inherited are still popular. People come from far and wide to trade and buy in the markets. So, we are trying to modernise them and build new ones.

Let us now focus on Umuahia. Some people observe that it neither looks like a state capital nor measures up to some other capital cities in the country. What is your take on this?

I thank you for this question. People come here and concentrate on Aba. They ask you about Aba all the time. They forget that Abia State has two major towns, Aba, the commercial centre, Umuahia, the city capital. The city capital is equally as important as the commercial nerve centre of Abia, which is Aba. You have to work on the two towns. The first and foremost thing about Umuahia being the state capital is the symbol of Abia. Anybody who comes to Abia will come to Umuahia and may end up not even going to Aba. And the impression he gets about Umuahia is the one he will carry about Abia State. So, it becomes imperative that we make this town, Umuahia, to look like a capital city. And that is what we are doing. The topographies of Aba and Umuahia are different. So, if you arrive in Umuahia, you may not see any bump; the roads are good. Erosion is under control. You have a functional drainage system in Umuahia. We are now putting up more structures to make Umuahia a befitting capital. You have streetlights that have been on in the city since 2008; we are still maintaining them and building new ones. We have decided to relocate the major market in Umuahia. Unlike in Aba, the market in Umuahia is at the centre of the town. We are now building a new one so that Umuahia will have a facelift. We have achieved almost 55 percent completion of the new market at Ubani. We are also building another market to move away the timber people from their industrial location very close to Government College, Umuahia. In fact, the timber people will move this month and the spaces created will be used for constructing houses. We are also building an International Conference Centre which will be a model. We are building a secretariat for civil servants because all along they have been operating in rented houses and apartments in different locations. The secretariat we are now building will house all the civil servants so that they can operate from a central place. These structures we are putting on ground will become legacy structures. The structures were not there before. If they were there before now, I couldn’t have gone back to start building them. I’ll rather use the money to do other things that can move government forward.

The Government House complex where this interview is being conducted looks rather unkempt, dilapidated and ancient. It does not seem to present the state in good light.

I’m pleased with your observation. This place where we are right now (the living quarters) used to be a guest house in the old Imo State. It was converted under emergency situation to a Government House. My office belonged to the late Vice-Marshall Emeka Omeruah as the owner. The then government acquired it from him and gave him an alternative plot of land. You can see that the Government House is being operated from a makeshift structure. However, we have started to build a befitting Government House at New Umuahia. It is one of the legacy projects I was talking about. If these things were done in the past – remember how many years since Abia State was created; nobody thought it wise to build a befitting Government House for this state. It is now that I’m here that I’ve thought it wise to do that. If you go to other states, you’ll be ashamed of what we have here. That is why we are determined to ensure that we build a befitting Government House where subsequent governments will live and operate from. And by the grace of God, if I finish before 2015, I will open it and others will also follow suit. It is important to note this, that the projects including the secretariat and the other legacy projects should be prioritised. We have also built a diagnostic centre. All these projects will outlive us and be signs of what we left behind when we were there as the governor.

The state seems to lack appreciable presence of industries. Some of your critics say you are not doing enough to attract investors to the state?

The first and foremost thing we have done to attract investors is to make sure we are on top of the security situation. Security is intact here. Kidnapping is gone; armed robbery is drastically reduced. So, investors are now willing to come and start investing in Abia State. We have also embarked on tours outside the shores of Nigeria. Not only myself but my aides and other notable Abians going out shopping for investors, and they have been coming. Some of the investors that ran away – such as Guinness – are back in Aba. The company left Aba because of kidnapping but right now they are back. Just yesterday, we were discussing about the Golden Guinea Breweries, about the people who have come to invest in it. Several potential investors have carried out feasibility studies and they are coming in. The last time I went to the US, I got in touch with our doctor friends in the Diaspora and we reached agreement with them to come and facilitate the building of an international hospital, an American hospital in Obaku City located at the boundary between Abia and Rivers States. The hospital will service Abia, Rivers, Imo and Akwa Ibom States.

What role did the Chief of Army Staff play in the security management of the state?

The Chief of Army Staff is from this state and he has put in a lot of efforts to achieve the standard we have attained so far. The Federal Government also assisted and all the other security agencies including the police, the SSS, the Navy and the others put in their best. It is the sustenance of the security level that matters now. We don’t want to get back to the situation when many people – including indigenes and non-indigenes – fled the state, especially Aba.

Still talking about the security situation, we discovered that the use of motor bikes as means of transportation was aiding and abetting kidnapping. What we did was to enact a law through the State House of Assembly banning the use of motorcycles as means of transportation in the urban areas of this state, replacing them with tricycles. The people were restive about it because usually change is not easy to effect. But eventually with advocacy they were able to realise the gains they could have from the use of tricycles. So, they now shifted to the use of tricycles as a means of transportation in Abia State. It is decent and it is safer. Accidents have been reduced. And they are disciplined under their unions. We also have taxis here but these tricycles have been very popular.

What are the other significant developments in other parts of the state?

We try to make an impact in every local government area. What they need in the local government areas are roads. We are constructing one road in each local government area of the state. Some are on-going, some have been completed. We are also embarking on agricultural revolution. We have the Liberation Farms that are on-going right now where we are going to embark on the cultivation of cassava. We engage and train our youths for the farms. The Liberation Farm is being established in each local government area of the state. Of recent, we have handed over our rubber estate to a private investor who has started working on it. We hope it will yield a lot of revenue for us. In our palm industry also, we have a private partnership arrangement with a foreign company that is developing our palm estates in Ohambele and Ulona. All these are in the agricultural sector.

In the health sector also, we have as of today built 250 health centres scattered all over the state in all the local government areas. These are apart from the general hospitals that we are renovating. In terms of education also, we are renovating the schools in the rural areas. We have given back some of the schools to their original owners for effective management. This is also helping us. We are reaping the dividends by the way our pupils and students are performing in public examinations. So, in all the sectors, we are touching the villages, one after the other. We have also given employment to 4, 500 youths. And we intend to give more. The rubber plantation we handed over, the MD told me will initially employ 56 people to work in the estate. These potential employees will come from the environment where the rubber estate is located.

What is the current situation with electricity?

We have a village called Ohiya in Umuahia. In Ohiya there is one 32KVA sub-station where there is power. We awarded contract to evacuate power to Umuahia and the surrounding towns as far as to Imo State. In recent times electricity has been fairly constant. That has brought about productivity in terms of the artisans who are working, and has at least reduce the noise you hear from generating sets everywhere. There is a Geometric plant in Aba that will be commissioned by February next year. This will make further make input into power generation in the state. It is owned privately. Then at Alaojie, the federal government is doing an NIPP project which is almost being completed. When completed the issue of lack of power will be a thing of the past in Abia State.

You have listed all these projects your government is carrying out, how come some people are still insist you are not doing much in the state?

The people who are saying that don’t come to the state. These projects are verifiable. Those who hold the negative views depend on the Internet. They are detractors and they will not see anything good in what we are doing. If we are not doing well, why are we winning all the laurels we have been winning? Just few months ago in Ghana I was given the Best Nigerian Governor Award in Security. Few weeks ago also, The Champion Newspapers gave him the award of The Icon of Democracy. Few weeks ago as well, the Methodist Church Nigeria gave me an award, Knight of John Wesley. Are these awards not indication of achievements? I didn’t buy them. I didn’t tell people to come and give me awards but they applied their conditions and criteria and saw that I’m qualified and gave them to me. These are independent people. They are not detractors. So, you don’t listen to what detractors are saying. I don’t expect anything better from them. What do you expect them to say? Would they come and praise me? If they praise me they won’t achieve their aim. These are Internet people who don’t come to Abia. If they are Abians, they don’t come home; they don’t even know their wards. They don’t know how many polling units are there in their wards. They are just far away making noise on what they can’t substantiate.

Your predecessor in office as governor has been one of your persistent critics…

I don’t have any comment. I don’t discuss my predecessor on the pages of newspaper.

Are you looking to install a successor who will sustain these projects? Are you thinking of the issue of succession?

Well, I’ve not started looking at that. Right now my focus is embarking on these legacy projects and finishing them – at least almost all of them. There are some we haven’t started so I can’t start thinking of who to succeed me now when I’m still working. For now I want to work to my satisfaction and when the time comes for succession I will take care of that.

Let’s talk about your future aspirations. Some of your former colleagues as governors became senators or went into farming. Where do you see yourself in future?

The future will tell.

There is also this allegation that you have not been paying government workers their salaries. What is the problem?

This is a rumour being peddled by our detractors whom I’ve been talking about. If there is any constituency that has benefited from this government most, it is the civil service. I’m building a secretariat for them. I promoted them. No government has done that in Nigeria, to generally promote civil servants from one grade to the other. I promoted all of them and sustained the promotion. I’m paying them minimum wage – one of the highest in the country, N20,100. And I’m paying their arrears. Let me ask these detractors who are spreading rumour, how many times have you heard that civil servants going on strike in the state? Even during the time of the crisis over minimum wage, when all the civil servants in the South East went on strike, civil servants in Abia State didn’t go on strike. They believed in the government because the government had been taking care of them. We are not owing salary. Generally, the Nigerian economy is not very buoyant; many states find it difficult to pay salary. The state governments are squeezing themselves to meet up with the payment of salary, suspend some projects to ensure that the civil servants are paid. We don’t want to disengage or sack anybody. We are managing to pay salary to our workers.

Mazi Sam Ohuabunwa has spent over two decades as a key player in the a pharmaceutical sector. Having served as the Chairman of the Nigerian Economic Summit Group and currently member of the Subsidy Re-imbursement Committee, he recently retired as the Chief Executive Officer of Niemeth International Plc. In this interview with Rita Ohai, he addresses issues ranging from the Kano drug crisis to the efficiency of the Subsidy Re-imbursement Committee and more.

You were at the helm of affairs at Pfizer Nigeria during the Kano drug testing crisis which reportedly killed some patients and maimed others. Many of the victims still say they have not been compensated after sixteen years, why is this so?

The Kano issue is a case of when a person is trying to do good and he is being accused of doing bad. Pfizer came to help Nigeria by saving people. And then the people that came to save were now being accused of coming to kill.

It is not true that people were being used as a test run. By the time people were treated on the product, Trovan, that drug had been tested on five thousand people. It was just to get additional information on one hundred patients. The trial was to just treat one hundred people as part of the effort to fight meningitis.

Pfizer brought products to support the programme but because this is a scientific opportunity and they were developing a product that was helpful in that area, they decided to do a trial by measuring that product against another one just to get additional information to add to the five thousand they already have.

Let me just say that, with all the medicines people take, somebody was the first person to take it. So someone has been, if you want to call it ‘guinea pig’. There must have been a guinea pig somewhere but the people were not guinea pigs because the product had gotten to the point where it was ready for the market.

It is a matter of what I call corruption turned upside down. People wanted Pfizer to be corrupt but the company refused to be and so they found a way to fine them. That is the truth because I knew what happened.

The accusation that the drug hurt people is not correct. The DNA of the people that the drug was used on is available. If there is a match between those coming for compensation and the DNA, they would be paid. But most of the people who have gotten paid are families of those who took part in the trial but did not survive.

If you are trying patients in any clinical process, not everybody will be saved. Some of them, their disease state would have gone beyond a point where they can be saved. Out of the 199 people that were on the trial, five people were not saved by Trovan and six were not saved by the standard drug that was used. A total of 11 people died. It was not that the drug killed them it was just that they could not be saved.

Some of the people on the list are to be compensated but the thousands of people that are being paraded where we only treated 199 people are big scams designed to frustrate Pfizer to bring the money. The company did not set out to injure anybody and to all intents and purposes, the product did not injure people.

As far as I am concerned, Pfizer was at a stage where it was growing rapidly all over the world and because of the high political risk in our market, they wanted to divest so that they can focus on marketing. They offered me the opportunity to lead the management to buy the shares and we did the management buy-out.

As a member of the subsidy re-imbursement committee, there is the belief that the palliatives promised during the subsidy removal campaign are inadequate or non-existent in some cases, what is the situation on ground?

The reality on the ground is different. The reality on the ground is that the re-investment is on-going in different sectors. We are working in Mass Transit where buses have been provided. We are also in road building and railway where a lot has been done to rehabilitate the rail-lines in Lagos, Kano, Port Harcourt and Markurdi. All of these programmes are supported by SURE-P.

Even beyond infrastructure, government is spending money in the area of human resources. Many have heard about the YouWin scheme, the maternal child health and other vocational programmes.

We should also remember that most of these programmes started around April or May but a lot of work is on-going.

For most of the projects the subsidy re-investment claims to cover such as road construction, there are standard budget allocations provided for the various ministries. Is this not a misuse of funds?

Yes, they have budgets but the money is inadequate. Given the high level of recurrent expenditures against capital expenditures which we have seen in our budget in the last couple of years, there is not enough capital for the ministries to fund their projects. So projects that should last two years are designed to last five years because money is only released as per budget.

What we are doing is to add additional funding from the SURE-P money so that we can accelerate the completion of these projects.

As a private sector person, we did support deregulation, privatisation and liberalization because we know that is the only way we can bring about efficiency into our operations and promote competition so that the prices can be brought down. We also know that is a big way to deal blow on corruption. All these people that are claiming that they were collecting subsidy, they would not have been attracted into that line of corruption.

I run my pharmaceutical company; I buy my products, manufacture and set my price. If a customer wants to buy, that is fine, otherwise they can choose to buy from another manufacturer. That is the way it ought to be. The moment you bring in subsidy and other intervention, corruption’s propensity increases. The N180 billion that we are using to work with SURE-P would have gone to the people collecting subsidy if it had not been removed and Nigerians would not be able to benefit.

We appreciate the challenges the average Nigerian is facing like the increase in expenditure and cost of living. But the question is ‘what is the best option?’ remain on subsidy and let some people cart our money away or let the money be re-invested in some way?

Many agree that the Christopher Kolade or SURE-P committee which you belong to is inefficient especially in carrying out their duties, what is your take on this?

I think it is a wrong claim. There is an assignment and it is being implemented. The issue is that many of the contracts that we are supervising have been given and our job is to ensure that the work is done according to specification and that people get paid when it is due.

The president has said he does not protect anybody. Whether they belong to his party or not, if they go against the law, they face the music and he has shown it in concrete terms. The rest is left to the judicial system which I have difficulty understanding why it takes forever to prosecute certain cases and bring people to justice. However, I am sure that if we ask the people in the judicial sector, they might have their explanations.

Recently, the First Lady and other government officials had to fly out of the country for medical care. From your experience at the apex of the health sector, how can government ensure that this trend is curtailed?

Private people all over the world have a right to go wherever they want to go with their own money but for the ones that are being funded at the public’s expense, we should be able to have facilities at home that can meet those demands. There needs to be a high development of medical services in the country so as to decrease the opportunities for capital flight. A lot of money is going off-shore to India, Dubai and Egypt because of this kind of situation.

I remember a couple of years ago, I was appointed to a committee when Professor Osotimehin was the Minister of Health and we were to work on the upgrading of four hospitals to global standards so that we can compete. We spent energy and money. We even travelled to Nairobi, Kenya to see how some of those institutions are doing and wrote our report. I am just hoping that this government will work in the same way and provide four big and equipped hospitals. In terms of human resource, Nigeria has a very good pool of health care professionals and you find them in Saudi Arabian and American hospitals.

Government has already envisaged this and government is worried about this but why we have been unable to get to the level where we keep people from flying out because the services are available locally is what I do not know.

As the former head of the Nigerian Economic Summit Group, why has the Federal Government’s schemes on economic development yielded little or no growth such that Nigeria is still classified as ‘underdeveloped’?

Our underdeveloped state has been a summation of many years of doing the wrong things or not doing the right thing sufficiently long enough to have an impact. We have had policy flip-flops. Each time one regime starts something good, before it begins to yield any benefit, it is changed. A new programme is introduced, people try to invest in it and then it gets changed again.

I was telling former President Obasanjo some days ago that one of the greatest shock I had was that when he left office, his successor, the late Musa Yar’ Adua had to halt many of his projects and as a result we lost momentum. Maybe it is in the nature of politics and governance but this lack of focus and sustainability is a major problem. In the last one or two years, we have begun to see some consistency with the projects that is why the state of the power sector is improving.

Another reason is that for a long time, this country has not had a united economic vision that we can pursue. Right now, we have a vision 2020 which has been well crafted and the government has begun implementation. If it is sustained for the next three to four years, we shall see great improvement in every sector of the economy as long as we are not distracted by the security problems we have been facing.

Do you think President Jonathan’s administration is encouraging Nigeria’s underdevelopment and economic hardship by supporting monopoly in the cement, flour and sugar and appointing a select few as financiers of the flood relief intervention fund?

I do not agree with that assertion. We operate in an open market!

It is just that the people involved are aggressive investors and we should promote that and not talk down about them. It is a matter of the size of your ambition.

There are a couple of people who are wealthy but will not want to bring their money to help the government. And nobody is going to force them to but those who are willing to bring their money are the ones that will be used.

There is a promotion of local investors but at the same time the opportunity for local investment is limited because government needs investors to push the economy forward.

Your colleagues in the pharmaceutical sector have complained about being discriminated against by others in the medical profession, how are you championing their cause?

I think the issue is to properly rearrange the team concept in the health sector. There is some historical fact that tended to cause some lack of cohesion in the health team. Medicine first started in Nigeria when doctors came home to continue their practice but many pharmacists did not want to leave their jobs abroad and relocate here.

Pharmacists, however, are asking that everybody’s role should be appreciated and complemented. They are also asking that they be compensated in relation to the work that they do. The doctor has expertise in diagnosing healing and recommending cure while the pharmacists has their expertise in designing medicines and communicating the safe way to use the drugs.

You recently retired as the Chief Executive Officer of Niemeth Pharmaceuticals, what are your plans for the future?

I thank God for the privilege to work in Pfizer and Niemeth International for 33 years with 18 years at the CEO level. I have paid my dues and I believe having served in various capacities at the top of the private sector, I have gathered quite a number of experiences. I am utilizing that now to do a couple of things for myself.

I am supporting some government initiatives by serving on the subsidy re-imbursement and empowerment programme of the Federal Government. I run a consulting firm which is focusing on enterprise development, governance and health care. I am also running a non-governmental organization where I try to transfer my entrepreneurial skills to the younger generation. In my ministry, I am also doing some work where I am able to testify and speak about the goodness of the Lord in my life.

Folorunsho Odutan John, an astute banker with over two decades experience in the industry, sits atop as the Managing Director/Chief Executive, Tag Nigeria Limited. FOJ as he is fondly called by friends and associates has served in various capacities in top flight banks and was until recently the pioneer Managing Director of First Bank Bureau de Change, a subsidiary of First Bank Plc. In this interview with Ibrahim Apekhade Yusuf, he shares his views on sundry issues affecting the nation’s banking sub-sector 

As a major player in the nation’s banking sub-sector over the last two decades how would you assess the industry?

From my own experience, the banking industry has gone through so many challenges, some of which were caused by the bankers themselves and some by the regulatory authorities. For instance, because of the craze for competition, a lot of things evolved in the early 90s and I can tell you that also caused some of the problems we have in the banking industry and the collapse of some banks in the mid to late 90s.

When we started banking there wasn’t rush for deposits and so on. But because of competition created by CBN a lot of banks started advertising. I’m very sure you must be aware that these days you see in front pages of newspaper something like, “we are the largest depositor; we are the best bank in terms of credit, assets” and so on. Thus, this attitude created distortion in some of reporting lines in banks. A lot of banks started doctoring their reports so that it will look good in the eyes of the public by just posting profits, and their balance sheets cannot even support the profit they are declaring.

And the media was awash with a lot of advertisements from the Nigerian banks and even from some unrecognised award givers in Europe and America. And when you see many Nigerian banks going abroad to receive one award or another, the question you should ask yourself is why are the likes of HSBC, American Express Bank, Barclays and others, how many times have you seen them winning awards?

But so many awards were created by those institutions over there because they wanted money from Nigerians and because we love publicity. So, that exactly contributed significantly to the failure of banks in the mid 90s. Banking is supposed to be conservative. In our time when you see a banker you will know this is a banker because of his attitude and way of life but this not so any more.

The CBN has said banks should divest all their equities from their subsidiaries. Is this the way to go?

I agree 110% with that because from the onset we got it wrong. For example, I worked in Ritz Bank in Washington, in the early 90s and what I could gather from American banking system is in terms of unit banking.

We wanted to introduce that into Nigerian market about some 15-16 years ago when Magnum Bank came in and were doing what we called franchise banking, and that is exactly the American model. You can never see an American bank with 560 branches; you can never have such.

The Ritz Bank, where I worked in Washington, only operates in a county in America, you know like what Magnum was trying to do. They were selling franchise to some people. Let’s assume you want to open a unit bank in Maroko, you are only entitled to operate within that Maroko; you get what I’m saying. That’s what we call unit banking. A situation where you now have a bank having about 560 branches, it’s crazy, and that is why the cost of operating the banks are so high that banks have come up with a lot of funny charges.

It’s only in this country that you have C.O.T or commission on turnover. I have travelled very wide and have never seen any bank that they charge you commission on turnover. In fact, it’s a parlance that is only operating in Nigeria.

So because of the cost of operation, it has made some banks to start charging some frivolous and unacceptable charges and that’s why the public don’t have confidence in the banking sector again.

So do you think the model chosen by the CBN is in order?

Coming back to your question, whether the banks should adopt a model as put forward by Sanusi, I agree like I said 110% because one thing banks should face the business of banking. What led to the capital market failure is because some banks have subsidiaries and the subsidiaries were even buying the shares of those banks and making the banks look good in the market and in the process the banks were taking undue advantage in terms of determination of the price in the capital market.

The question you should ask yourself is that when the banks are declaring billions and billions in terms of profit what’s happening to the real sector? That’s one fundamental economics that a lot of Nigerians have not been able to come to terms with.

What is happening to the likes of the Dunlop, the Michelin the PZ the Unilever, Cadbury, where are they today? In my elementary economics in the University of Ibadan, I was taught by one of the best and renowned economist, then in Nigeria, Professor Aboyade, and he always emphasised a point and students then in the early 80s we had that memory about the equation of Nigerian economy or early economy of the whole world.

I left university about 30 years ago and the thing still reverberates through my brain. We have a problem of equation of the national income. You know Nigeria we have been boxed into a corner because of the oil, and we have lost even the middle class; the middle class is supposed to generate that savings that we need to invest, but how many of them have savings now?

People now take their investments out of Nigeria. And that’s what we have not been able to address fundamentally: the inability to develop that culture of savings.

And how do you develop it? It’s simple. Without the power sector running there is no way you can industrialise. Most companies in Nigeria today have gone to Ghana; some have gone to South Africa. I learnt that even one company has now relocated to Togo. Look at Togo’s population; it’s not more than half of Lagos.

Until we are able to solve the power problem and have able leadership in terms of policies things will not change for the better.

What’s your assessment of the bureau de change sector?

Look at the operation of the Bureau de change today, you and I know that the mallams you see out there are illegal traders because to trade in foreign exchange you must have a trading license. What I’m saying is that government knows that these people are handling an illegal business. And we have a government that is not even aware of what they are doing then we have a problem as Nigerians. I feel so bad that you have an economy that is funding bureau de change and I have said it so many times even to the CBN governor when we had a meeting in Abuja and I told him that this is the only country in the whole world where CBN funds bureau de change. I don’t know but somebody told me that it was to control exchange rate. But even then, you don’t control the exchange rate by funding bureau de change. That’s an artificial funding. You generate foreign exchange through production.

The issue of bureau de change, I say it and I want anybody to challenge me, the people running bureau de change today are speculators because we have turned bureau de change into another commodity, and when you turn your currency into a commodity it will be subjected to trading. And no currency is being traded except commodity.

Alhaji Muhammodu Lawal Kaita is a former chairman of Nigerian Maritime Authority (NMA) and was governor of old Kaduna State from October 1st to December 31st 1983. A North-west Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) leader and die-hard supporter of former Vice President Abubakar Atiku’s presidential ambition, the octogenarian has seen the good, the bad and the ugly in governance. He bares his mind on contemporary issues in this encounter with our Katsina Correspondent, ISah Idris.  

Nigeria has just celebrated its 52nd Independence. What were your expectations at independence as regards the country’s leadership? Have these expectations been met?

By and large, whether we like Nigeria or not, whether we like its leadership or not, we can say Nigeria has progressed by leaps and bounds in the last 52 years. It has improved tremendously compared to the pre-independence time. Like in many places where there were no roads, today we can see them. We went to the college in low rates. There were few roads with coal tar, but today we have them.

When I was in Kaduna College, we came to school by lorries, and even in the college there was no proper accommodation – with students lying on bare mats. Things have changed and so, we can say there is tremendous improvement.

What other things can you say are the fundamental successes and challenges facing the country after 52 years today?

Well, there are so many challenges, some have been solved or resolved. If you talk of Boko Haram, if you talk of Maitasine, they are all challenges. I know in Kano, Maitasine was there; fully trained young men were ready to die, killing people and so on, but the problem was resolved and peace returned to Kano. So there are some of these challenges and crisis that we faced after the 1964 crisis.

You can recall the electoral crisis of 1964 when Northern Peoples’ Congress (NPC) contested elections and won. There was boycott and that created crisis between Action Group (AC) and NPC, but it was successfully resolved because of maturity and sincerity. This was because every one of the leaders then was after the success and wellbeing of Nigeria as a country – not to make money for himself unlike the situation we find ourselves in today. Now, everyone is to himself. So there is a wide difference between the situation then and today. Now, everyone wants to make money (laughs). But then those leaders we inherited governance from were not interested in that, they were only interested in the wellbeing of the Nigerians, the wellbeing of ordinary people.

What brought all this excessive greed, I believe, is the unfortunate military intervention. With the military intervention young, immature, inexperienced officers from nowhere, not trained, now seized power. That was the beginning of troubles for Nigeria.

Before then, before you became somebody as a leader, you must have been groomed by somebody. Even in party membership, like in Northern Element Progressive Union (NEPU) where I was, before you become a member, you must have been groomed for years. People didn’t just mischievously jump to power as you have it today. This is what we are doing today. Today everyone can just become leader at any highest level without learning or understanding what leadership entails. All the language they understand now is how to steal money; how to amass wealth that does not belong to them but to the common people of Nigeria. So, all is not well with Nigeria any longer.

We were told by some elder statesmen who witnessed the lowering of the Union Jack and the hoisting of the Nigerian flag at Tafawa Balewa Square, Lagos on October 1st 1960 that, as a leader, if you were offered bribe, the money was thrown back in your face, ethnic and religious tolerance was at its peak, security was guaranteed, until crude oil was discovered. What is wrong with Nigeria? is it oil?

I have told you my understanding that what brought about indiscipline and corruption and so on, was the intervention by military officers in Nigerian politics and the sudden change of power. You can imagine, Tafawa Balewa as Prime Minister was a teacher for twenty years; he was a councillor. He was groomed. He knew all the intricacies of power. Then, suddenly, Gen. Aguiyi-Ironsi came in and took over power from a village in Ibo land. Not that I belittle him, no! I don’t belittle him but because as a very young man, very inexperienced except to hold the gun, he killed this man, took over power, without the knowledge of how to use that power.

He was equally surrounded by very young gun-totting officers who did not understand what leadership meant. How do you expect stability in this situation? That was the beginning; the problem is not oil. Oil could be part of the problem but not the real problem. Of course, after the military intervention and sudden change of power the young officers, they didn’t know how to use the power to the benefit of the Nigerian people; they mismanaged the proceeds from oil to enrich themselves.

There was no problem when oil was discovered and explored. When exploration was to start, the southern states had no money, so we resorted to use the resources from groundnut, cotton, cocoa, coffee and so on to explore the oil. But suddenly, people began to feel this is their own not our own, after the bastardisation of the system by the military boys. This continued up till the movement of federal capital from Lagos to Abuja, which itself produced elitist leaders who now partitioned to themselves the resources and wealth of this country and dumped the common man to his fate. This is the system now in place.

I want to tell you that oil money was just a contributory factor to indiscipline and corruption. If you haven’t gotten money, there is no way you can use it to corrupt people. So, money was there aplenty during the oil boom in the early 70’s, and it was part of the problem but not the strongest influence.

You can imagine a young man and a friend of ours, an army officer then who was a military administrator, solely got a contract worth one hundred million naira then. A young man without experience of what to do with that huge amount of money was playing around with such money. At times, he would come to us with one hundred, two hundred, three hundred and four hundred thousand naira in his pocket. I knew some of them. He was not even married then, but he got this plenty money suddenly. This has been so all over the country. Imagine, young officers – they were young friends, to make such plenty money was shocking then. And that was how they encouraged all sorts of things.

I am not saying a young man should not have money, no! But they are not experienced at handling such huge amounts of money without indirectly causing havoc to the society. It is fair and better for you to go through the decent process of getting this money. If you go through the decent process of getting this money, you will respect it. But as a young man without a wife, without responsibility and you come across hundreds of millions of naira, what do you do with it?

Obviously, you will squander it, you will spend it recklessly. You will go after cheap girls, drinking and so on. All they want is playing around the whole country with reckless livelihood and that is what we do today. That is the greatest problem we have in Nigeria today.

If you are talking of leadership or rulers, we have two different kinds of rulers. We have the traditional ruler and we have political ruler. To be a traditional ruler, you must be part of the traditional system. You must be born and bred in that system.

In the political system too, the same traditional system bred the political system. People like Sardauna, Ahmadu Bello, Tafawa Balewa, Isa Kaita, Ribadu and so on, were groomed in the same system and they ruled Nigeria with utmost sincerity. All they wanted was peaceful co-existence and to help ordinary people. That was the true system in place then. Now, the systems are totally bastardised.

Now, the political system is entirely different from traditional system. The political system brings in views from nowhere, from unknown, unsound background or unknown sources just like that. No experience, people don’t know what it means to govern or rule people, because, suddenly, some people came and took over power. So, this is part of the problem with us.

Northern leaders have demonstrated severally that they have lost focus after abandoning the ideals and legacies of the late Sir Ahmadu Bello. We are now faced with insecurity and threats to lives and properties, Almajiri now flood our streets, and people are now picking bullets instead of groundnuts. Any hope for a responsive northern leadership and a secure north?

What happened in the North was quite unique really. North was very disciplined, loyal, hardworking and obedient but suddenly these collapsed. You ask me why?

Well, this total collapse came in the last few years; because there is total collapse now such that, virtually, north has no leader. Nobody is highly respected today that he can dictate or direct others in the region. Nobody! Before from Waziri, Isa Kaita, Hassan Usman Katsina, these people could collect the people in the north and they would come and listen to them, but today, nobody.

The collapse came in the last few years because of the effect of money and the naira in particular. What I am saying is that greed and money politics has destroyed the discipline we once had in this country, and especially in the north. A young man without food, without a penny, you give him five thousand naira, ten thousand naira to go and do this and he will do it. Go and abuse this man, go and harass this man, he will do it for you in the name of politics and he will even kill and many instances abound. This crisis has continued to play out itself for over some ten years now.

So, money politics has destroyed the discipline in every society in Nigeria. Once you give money or naira, you can be assured, everything you need will be done for you. Everybody now, even the traditional rulers are now suspected to be induced by money. The judiciary itself, the last hope of the common man, is accused of accepting bribe and corruption. Don’t talk of police.

Unfortunately, they are now exposing the very heart of the nation – the army – to corruption. They are on the streets stopping cars and vehicles, begging for bribe money. So, after this stage, the entire system that we inherited from our founding fathers will collapse because of money. Other means of livelihood have been dumped for bribe money and quick money making.

For instance, a Katsina man used to live virtually on farming and smuggling. Easy money has taken over hard money. When you go to farm and get money, it is hard money. If you get money through smuggling and other cheap sources, you dump farming. You are now saying why go to farm to work and get one hundred thousand naira when you can get five hundred thousand naira a day through cheaper and mischievous ways. So, all these things continued to multiply until we found ourselves in this mess.

The government which makes and executes laws failed to stop this. All the agents of government instead become part of this corrupt practice system, and there has never been a salvation from the situation we found ourselves. If you start a meeting here now, the government, or somebody, an agent of government will give one million naira to some gang of people to come and scuttle it, because the government is not comfortable with the meeting. So, if you give out money, you can achieve whatever you want, good or bad in Nigeria, because everything is money – nothing else matters.

Take for instance, the last presidential primaries of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) between Atiku and Jonathan in Abuja. Atiku is a Fulani man and a Muslim from the North and Jonathan is a Christian and a minority tribe from the south. When votes were cast, we had 150 delegates from Katsina State but Atiku got only 11 votes and Goodluck Jonathan got 137 votes. Is it sincere, is it not a total sell out? Is this the effect of money? (Laughs!)

It is not a conscious effort. Nobody knew Jonathan in Katsina but everybody knew Atiku because he has come to Katsina several times. Did people vote for Jonathan or they were made to vote for him? (Laughs!) You see, this is part of the collapse, when things are not done on their own merit. By this type of action, you are expecting to get something from the presidency in return. You don’t look at the problems we are facing as a society. Everything in Nigeria now is rotten. Is it safety, is it corruption, is it money laundering? Name it.

Nigeria cannot afford to remain perpetually in this mess. As an elder statesman ,how do you think we can get out of the woods?

Obviously, we have to get out of this bad situation otherwise the country called Nigeria will collapse. I think we have various arms that are working towards how we could get out of this wood. There are various committees working now. Government is involved, everyone is involved. I believe everyone in Nigeria today has realised the danger the country is facing, everybody, no exception. Even those who think they have succeeded… may be they have stolen enough money. They are all lying.

Everybody knows Nigeria is in danger of disintegrating, if it disintegrates, nobody is a benefactor, nobody will benefit. Whatever it is, we are better together as one nation. Even the fact that Nigeria is the largest country in Africa is enough to boost your morale. If you are in a country like Botswana, you will know the worth of Nigeria as a country. Since everyone has realised our dilemma as Nigerians now, big or small, I think we are getting somewhere.

You mentioned that the Nigerian military has been involved in corruption. Can you expatiate on the extent of their involvement instead of their being occupied with defending the sovereignty of the nation?

What more do I say? You see it, I see it. You know it, I know it. What do I explain?( Laughs!) As the sole guardian of this nation, the military should not be involved in this beggarly activity. You can see them in the streets, stopping cars of the road users. I can see many road users offering them money, what else, they are being introduced into this money evil called bribery and corruption and that is bad. In those days, if the army came out during troubles, they stopped it and went back to the barracks. Now, they are permanently on the streets doing police work. It is another dangerous trend, a very dangerous situation. It has to be reversed.