Babatunde Ogala is the National Legal Adviser of the All Progressives Congress (APC). In this interview, he bares his mind on the challenges of his office, the APC crises, Executive Orders, national security and sundry issues. Legal Editor JOHN AUSTINN UNACHUKWU met him.
How would you assess our democratic experience?
For me a 20-year-old is referred to as a young adult. And from the way it is in our environment, even a 20-year-old is still a child, living under the parents’ house and guidance. Even some are still in school. Most 20-year-olds are still in school honing their skills to be whatever they want to be in future and all that. So, what I will say about our democracy is that it is still a learning curve. We are still learning, considering that we came out of almost 33 years of continuous military rule. Even the semblance of democracy we have was a military guided democracy. Even the current constitution we operate is a military-imposed constitution. So, it is a learning curve and certainly this is the longest since our independence that we have had a continuous civil rule. We have gone through four rounds of general elections and coming from the background of a regimented country, it is still a learning curve. You will observe that in the prsent and past administrations, people are now freer to talk; this they dared not do in the past. But the freedom is also being abused with the kind of massages we see. But again, it just says something about the new found freedom – freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of thought are all component parts of constitutional rule. I won’t call it democratic rule, but I will say it is full constitutional rule.
How do we rate the current regime?
If you want to rate us, I want us to take it beyond how elections were conducted. We must look at the totality of how have we fared under constitutional rule. Our freedom is well guaranteed now. I am sure we now have more human rights violations lawsuits than ever before. You are now beginning to have freedom to ask questions from government. We are now calling governments to order if they are not being responsive. There is a lot of scrutiny by civil society groups. Look at the democratic space. Today we have more than 100 political parties. When we started this journey, the military regulated it to only three. But thereafter, through the instrumentality of the law in civil rule, the Supreme Court opened the space and has even gone as far as saying that every Nigerian, including civil servants, has the right to belong to a political party unlike the guidelines of the past which stated that civil servants could not participate in politics. The courts now said no, that it was an infringement on their constitutional rights to freedom of association and thoughts. So, when we talk about democratic rule we must look beyond just elections. If you open social media platforms you will see a lot of attacks on the President. You wouldn’t dare that in the past. So, to me I will not call it democratic rule, I will call it constitutional rule.
So how do you appraise it over the last 20 years?
In the last 20 years or thereabout, of its practice as a young adult, it still a learning curve, it is still far from where we would be but I think that we are gradually getting there though I must also say that those who criticise democracy and all of that a lot of the time too are unconscious of what the law says. They don’t relate it to laws, you hear talks about if I get into government I am going to do this, no, it is no longer about what you say you would do, it is no longer about fiat, it is no longer about decrees it is now going through a democratic process.
The Executive Orders by President Muhammadu Buhari have been largely criticis ed, what is your view about these Orders?
I will give you an example about the Executive Order signed by the President, even my own professional body, the NBA quite unfortunately also went to a conference and turned itself into an opposition group where it came up with a communiqués where everything was antigovernment including the Executive Orders and I have challenged the NBA at some point, the courts are open for us to challenge these orders. And I have also asked, which specific Orders was the NBA referring to for instance, was it the Order by the ease of doing business, that you call draconian or is the one that says that you must register company within 24 or 48 hours or the one that says that you can grant visas to investors at the point of entry, are those we can say that are draconian. Of course it has now been tested in courts and the court came out clean and said the government was ion order and within its constitutional powers to issue those Executive Orders. So again that is the beauty of democracy, that is the beauty of constitutional rule.
What have been the challenges of running your office as the national legal adviser of the APC?
Well, the major challenge on my assumption of duty is having to draw a distinct line between law and politics and looking for how to blend both. Like you possibly know that like in football, like every other sports, politics itself to me is a game and everybody devises every trick in the business to want to win the game including sometimes having to bend the laws when need be and in democratic setting just like in football, politics when we talk about politics in this country we talk as if it is a poisonous game. Like in football, there is foul play also in politics there will be foul play. Like in business there will be foul play like all facets of our lives. People will always want to secure undue advantage so it has been a major challenge for me to do a good balance between politics and law. Everybody walks into your office, want you to do things their own way, want you to never do what is illegal, you have to draw a balance and I keep saying being the APC Legal Adviser has been a new experience. As a lawyer I have a dual role of seeing to the enthronement of the rule of law while playing politics. I must work for my party to win the elections which it certainly won in 2015 going by the performance of the government over the past three and half years. And I also have a duty to protect that main institution from which I came, so that that is a huge challenge and having to get a good balance and if I must confess in my last three to four months here, I think to the glory of God, one has been able to do a balance, one has been able to transform the legal department of the APC to a full fledge law office. Where we now practice law, it is now a law chamber against a courier centre to take briefs to lawyers. It is a big challenge and in that perspective I would say we done so much but just like I said, it has been a huge experience.
As a Lagos based lawyer, how are you managing the challenges?
It is no long being a Lagos based lawyer, I am learning about intricacies and all manner of matters understanding human personalities, having the temperament too because as a politician you must listen to everybody, my door must be open, having to draw a good balance between a lawyer and the politician who has to deal with people on a daily basis and of course the legal department as you really know, is the engine room, the clearing house and the problem solver because in politics, problems will always be created that is why the courts are there that is litigation is there so we have managed the legal process so well without incurring costs for the party. I also engage in law practice when the need be because that is my primary responsibility as a legal adviser. I have a duty to defend the party in all matters, I also have power to brief lawyers and when need be and there are no lawyers to defend, I take up the responsibility of defending the party too.
What is your view about the APC primaries and the attendant crises?.
Well, the press and the public call it crises, but I ask this question whenever I hear the word crises. Where are the crises, the APC today is in the news, the stock of APC of 2014 is not the same as the stock of the APC of 2018, it is different.
What is the difference?
In 2013 when we started out, some people said this party will not last for one year, some said that if lasted for one year we should call them bastards. Well we didn’t call them bastards, they named themselves bastards and we believe that they are what they claim to be. But the stock of APC that time was a party some people called names, called Boko Haram, some called it Islamic, some called it all manner of names and people were encouraged not to even approach it. And that was a time when your membership of the party or expression of interest was a sure banker to getting the party’s ticket. Well, we moved up to 2018, the stock if it was on the stock exchange, if APC was a company on the stock exchange, if the share sold for N100.00 in 2014, I am sure today it will sell for N5, 000.00 per share. There has been an influx into the party, many new people have many more people have shown interest after the party had won elections. So it is natural that where you have primaries of three people to manage, in 2014 you now have about 20 people seeking the same office.
What are the implications?
Well, then we are talking of over 700 House of Assembly seats, 360 House of Reps seats, 109 Senatorial seats, 29 Gubernatorial seats each being contested by an average of about five persons. Put the number together, it is only natural that you have disagreements. And then because it now APC, APC is the news. For instance if they say today that the treasurer of APC did this and the Chairman of the PDP did the same thing, the treasurer of the APC will take the front page because APC is the news today because it is the ruling party. If Adams Oshiomhole coughs and the totality of the PDP is crying, APC will be the news. So it is natural that even things that are inconsequential are called crises. You can see me sitting comfortably here and some of my colleagues of the NWC are lying down on the sofa over there, we are at peace. If in a situation where we had 29 Gubernatorial primaries and we have issues in three and you call that one crises, then we don’t have problem. What percentage is that that, it is less than 10per cent. So we scored 90 per cent, it is a good score. If we have 360 House of Reps elections and have issues in 30 of them, I will score us high, election in 109 Senatorial seats and we have issues in 10 or 20 then here is no problem. If you go through all these rounds of elections and there are no issues, there are no complaints, they are so seamless, then something is wrong with you. Unlike the PDP, who is the PDP Gubernatorial candidate in Ogun State, I am sure that you don’t know it. Who is their gubernatorial candidate in Imo State? I am sure that you don’t know, our own rings bell because APC is the party that Nigerians want, that is the party for the masses. It is of concern to Nigerians because it is the party they are proud of, show concern for and do not anything to go wrong.
So how do you manage the crises?
Really we have no crises, we have misunderstanding which is only natural, even in the family when they want to appoint family heads and you have about four people person contesting for that one slot the losers will always complain the they were cheated even the man who lost fairly, whose child did not even vote for, will also complain and say, my child was induced to work against me. There will always be complains.
So what have we done to address all these issues?
We are now using our internal machinery to resolve all these issues. I can assure you that there are high level consultations and mediations going on right now, looking at these issues and in the next few weeks, we will have everybody come on board. In the South East for instance, in 2014 you might not have known our candidates, but today we have influx of people from other political parties where our party was hitherto seen as a pariah. When people talk of the APC look at all the rounds of elections we have had gone through in the past three and half years, other than Anambra, we haven’t lost any. And even in Anambra State this time, in the Gubernatorial mid- term elections which the incumbent Governor won, but what was the joy, unlike in the past, we even beat the PDP in Anambra and there was no election be it Bauchi Senatorial, Kogi Gubernatorial, Katsina Senatorial and all the rest, Ondo Gubernatorial, Ekiti, Osun Gubernatorial elections, Kogi bye elections House of Representatives, we have not lost any and even where our candidates did not win, we were always a close second. That shows that the stock of the party has continuously improved. And is also a measure and an expression of confidence in the government of the APC.
But social media is awash with criticisms of the crises in your party what is your reaction?
We know the wailers on the social media though I don’t want to call them so, but they will always wail. But deep down, the APC has not done badly. One party said I initiated all those projects, in a couple of weeks I will be able to live in Ibadan and work in Lagos with the rail system because of the railway crossing, direct rail. Today you can go from Abuja to the airport by train, today you can travel to Kaduna from Abuja by train.
But the Peoples Democratic Party claim to have initiated those projects?
Yes the PDP will always tell you we initiated, we initiated and so on yes, we are not saying that you did not initiate, but you looted the budget for these projects and abandoned them. The Niger Bridge is receiving attention, the East West road, then need we talk about our self-sufficiency today in rice production, need we talk of the stock of the farmers, the developed railway system for instance the first time when a train entered Warri from Itakpe, it was like a night masquerade coming out in the afternoon. Warri had never seen a train, are you talking about the East West train link that is going to circle the whole country. And these are things that are working, are you talking about the Mambila power project that has been there for 50 years, what happened, they built turbines, they built power stations, they will tell you Igeregu Omotosho which under the old administration some of them were commissioned three times and yet no show. They built power stations and forgot how to link it with gas power it. In 16 years they left power at 3600 Mega Watts, we have taken the stock to 7,000 Mega Watts. So, the APC of old is not the APC of today. Even our Anti-corruption fight which they tried to knock who are those trying to knock it, of course the corruption will fight back and the budget of corruption possibly is as big as the budget of this country, corruption itself is an institution and it will fight back, free funds, the oil subsidy scammers, those who get free OPL without bidding and even the candidate who said that he is going to create jobs today, and yet declared N2 Million as his income tax for one year.
The APC government at the centre has been widely condemned for disobeying court orders by detaining the Shiites leader, El Zak-Zakky and former National Security Adviser Sambo Dasuki after courts had granted them bail. What is your reaction to this?
We make mountains out of moohills even my own professional body alsp alluded to that that El-Zakky Zaky and Dasuki are being held, you are a lawyer. When Asari Dokubo was held for many years under the last administration of President Olusegun Obasanjo, he went to Court up to the Supreme Court and what did the Supreme Court say. That National security can override personal liberty and this justified the continued detention of Asari Dokubo. So what then is the issue about holding El-Zakky Zakky or Dasuki where the Supreme Court has already given express powers to the State to keep people in detention and say your rights. Permit me to read from that judgment your rights can be subjugated to overall national security so what have we done differently, what has this APC government done differently and like I have always told my colleagues, who make a lot of capital out of the detention of these two gentlemenwhy are we not testing this in court. There is an express decision of the Court on this that yes, you can keep certain people in detention if they constitute dangers to the national security and national security cannot Asari Dokubo Vs Federal Republic of Nigeria 2007 ALL Federation Weekly Law Report pt. 375 the SC said: “When national security is threatened or there is real likelihood of it being threatened, human rights or individual rights of those responsible take second place. Human rights or individual rights must be suspended until national security can be protected or taken care of. This is not anything new, the corporate existence of Nigeria as a united and harmonious indivisible sovereign nation is certainly greater than any citizens liberty or rights. Once the security of this country is in jeopardy and will end in pieces, individual or citizens right may not exist”