Chairman of the Northan Governors Forum, Babangida Aliyu of Niger State, in this interview with Adetutu Audu in Lagos speaks on critical issues that should be tackled at the on-going review of the constitution, the problem with Nigeria as a nation and other, topical matters.
At 52, Nigeria is still crawling. What is the problem?
In the past we had answers like the problem with Nigeria is leadership, some people said it was economic development, some have queried if Nigeria was a nation. Is it a geographical expression? But I think we have gone beyond that. You take the adage that people get the type of leadership they deserve, so if we have problem with leadership or economic development, problem of whether we are a nation or not, it is because we have not been discussing enough.? I have always lamented the fragmentation of the elite because every country that is united, it is the elite who have been able to do this. Once they have been able to understand an issue and take a decision, it permeates the society.
I will give you an example. At the local level, people really don’t care where you come from, all they care about is what kind of contribution are you making for the development of that community. It is your behaviour or attitude to them that matters. But the elite, we have made it so much because we are the ones competing with this and that and with our primordial loyalty to our community first. Even that loyalty is not for the development of the community, but exploitative nature.
We gave another example of planning, at the initial stage, we have called development plan, which at least you have input –output that you will be able to measure and say yes we have put certain amount of money here and this is the result.
Even the population, we are still not too sure. What is our actual population, are we still estimating. Every region, state and local government had complained about the last census that they have been under counted. And if that is the case, then it means we have the problem of planning.
Not to mention now our budgetary system, it is not at par with the development plan we are expecting. So if you say we are crawling, or walking, limping or whatever, this should be seen in the context of the way we do things. Many countries after 52, even a human being is no more a young man, he is in fact going beyond the middle age. So what do we do? We need to be very frank. Some people may accuse you, I remember when I talked about some few things some people said that I was talking too much, they wanted to silence me. But that is the price I have to pay for leadership position I got through God from the people of Niger State.
What would you say are the major issues we should be tackling in the on-going review of the constitution?
This issue of indigene /settler, the constitution must say something about it. So that we don’t have this dichotomy of who is an indigene, who is a settler? When somebody has stayed in a place for this long, he should be able to enjoy the privileges and the right of that particular community. It is not nice when a person who has been born in a place and his parents have stayed there for so long to be regarded as a non-indigene, that creates its own security problem, not to mention the psychological trauma that such a family maybe suffering. Therefore, we need to talk about that.
Some people are talking of creation of states, which may be fine. But I think we need another super structure. Maybe not zones like we have now, but look at the zone properly so that we can reconstitute the whole aspect of zones. To make them real development areas and concept that people will be able to identify. The way we are now is just a description, but we can look at that as an issue, maybe not for the immediate one, but I think we should begin to discuss such matters.
Revenue allocation formula, this federalism that we have is a problem. How can you have a federal system having 52percent of the revenue? With so many states, so many employees and many without the capacity to really do what they are supposed to do. Then you have a recipe for wastage and corruption. And most of the beneficiaries are in the state. I talked about education; the Federal Ministry of Education can be only concerned with the quality of tertiary institutions but should not be involved in the secondary education.
Agriculture-the actual beneficiaries and the farmers are all in the states. That also should be a supervisory thing. Nobody can tell now the actual thing that is being produced by the farmers in a particular state, at local, state or federal level. What is the actual product? And even the estimated actual product, what revenue does it generate?
When we talk about poverty of less than $1, like one of my colleagues was saying in his village, people have yams, so don’t talk about dollar to them because there is nothing they would do with the dollar. But that they should have food to eat. Now let us enhance that, so that the issue of hunger is taken away and then we go back to ensure we give them good school, good hospital. Naturally when you provide such things, the people will begin to look at themselves from higher level. The issue of being Nigerian, indigene or settler will go away because there is competition for economic benefits and other things.
Devolving of powers to the local government and the state, we complain of the quality we get at the local government or the state and the main competition for political office is more at the centre, so people are competing to be there. In most cases by the time it finishes you realised that the real qualitative people that should be there are not there because they don’t have the wherewithal to be there. And then the local level which is the foundation for development would have been left to people who cannot really take it to higher standard.
Many people are saying make the local government autonomous. Which is fine, but who do they report to, what do they need and who is going to supervise them? In many countries which operate the federal system, local government is a matter for the state. Now, we have 776 local governments. Lagos State from 20 to 57, are they right in doing what they did? Where you have a large population, you have to find a way to deliver services. In Niger State what I did instead of creating more local governments, I created what I called ward development, every ward is constituted into a group because you needed to do that to really get down to the people and they are the ones who know what they want.
We also need to be discussing security. Governors may be called chief security officers, are they really? Do they have the wherewithal? Some are saying state police, some said no, make the federal police work, make them more efficient, give them equipment and employ more people. We have 371,000 police officers. 100, 00 or one third really do menial jobs of protecting some rich people and some political office holders. We are left with about 200,000 to do the job of policing about 160million people. We need to articulate properly, if we have state police, what is it they would be doing? We must know the limitation and the delineation of the role they should play, so that we don’t end up with the same problem we had one time where regionally we had police who were to protect the regime of the time.
If a governor controls state police without proper articulation of role, he can use them for any other thing. So we need to sit down and articulate the role. Is it to combat local crime, rape and other issues? Then what is the role of the federal police? How do we supervise to make sure one is not going to the other extreme, what do we do to make sure we don’t create another problem through that? Already, I know many states have vigilante groups, even neighbourhood watch, you find that one street is being blocked and if you are late you cannot enter. But they are only protecting their lives and properties, which are the functions of a state and leadership.
What are the northern governors doing to repair the damage done to the image and economy of the north by Boko Haram?
The image that Boko Haram has damaged is not only to the north but to the whole country. When you go out of this country and you begin to discuss Nigeria, the perception out there is that we have problem. In fact many nations tell their citizens not to come, to them they think Nigeria is just one village that has the problem. They don’t know that this place may not have problem. So the image issue is not only for the north but Nigeria. I remember whenever we have image issue, we even constitute committee to go and discuss with other people because of the channel of communication, many people out there get information from TV channels like CNN, Al-Jazeera.
For example I was told that many international pilots don’t sleep in Abuja, especially British Airways, when they drop people in Abuja they move to Lagos. Though they are coming to Lagos, but it is the same Nigeria.
That also shows how we handle matters, for instance, the flood thing. Many of us were aware of the issue three months before it happened. What did we do at both the local, state and the federal level? Now we are sending national emergency, what about the number of lives lost to the flooding? It is a collective thing. At the level of Northern Governors’ Forum we are going out to discuss with other people to enlighten them more that Nigeria is not the way and manner they perceive it. That to a larger extent you can come and do your business in any of the state without any fear. We need more sense of security because that is what people are used to. We have been talking with other states in the west to come and farm directly for things they need like tomatoes. I know we have been talking with the Governor of Lagos State, Babatunde Fashola to come to Niger, Kastina and other places to bring investors. Things you take for granted sometimes become more important, for some of us tomatoes have been taking for granted and now that it happened we realise how important it is.
And that is why we tell some people no matter what happened, Nigeria will not break the way you think. And that is why we must all come together and patch it up, discuss and make corrections, restructure where we need to, but let us do it with respect and some decorum so that nobody feels he is being alienated or being accused for past issues. No matter the vocabulary we use to make some groups look like, we are the best and other groups are worst. The moment you describe me as the worst, I won’t even listen to what you are saying, even if you are right. We also established a committee of 41 members to look at all security reports either from state or federal government from Maitasine period in Kano, the white paper that has not been implemented, let them bring it out which one are still relevant, which one should the federal government now take, which should the state and the local government take and even the private sector do.
I’m happy, they have gone very far, they are getting co-operation from the federal government.
Why is the north trying to revisit the on-shore/off-shore dichotomy issue which has been resolved by the Supreme Court?
It is not the Supreme Court that settled it. What is the judgement? It is to understand that it was an international thing. What happened is that the National Assembly at one time passed a law that if you really read the Supreme Court judgement; it is for the maintenance of the dichotomy. This is an international thing in every country, certain things out there belong to everybody. There were a lot of problems, the cumulative problems that have happened in Niger Delta and there is a need to do some corrective measure but was not part of the corrective measure. You have a Ministry of Niger-Delta, you have NDDC, derivation, then this little one that other people as part of the citizenship of a country that they should be enjoying, they have not been enjoying.
So if someone says there is no political issue, no decision we say it has been settled. If it had been settled, why are some people talking about it? Sometime people can make something out of nothing, so that you can come back to negotiate. That is the argument. If the federal government says it is a settled matter, but we are discussing it so that people can understand it was a sacrifice that was made then to solve some problems. But there is still room for discussions.
It was recently announced that oil has been found in the Chad Basin. Do you support those who accuse the federal government of not making serious effort to prospect for oil in the north?
Oil has always been there. There is oil in Bida and Sokoto Basin. For now the federal government is making attempt but it is not as cheap since the Chad Basin is a desert area. You might have to go deeper than you would have done in the riverine area. Most of the companies that would do the exploration may find out that instead of spending $2 in the Chad Basin, there they can spend 70cent. They have oil now in Kogi State, although I hear a lot of issues with Anambra State. I think the issue has more to do with the fact that Anambra is more proactive. But my understanding and the geographical location of Kogi, local governments have built schools in that place, how come nobody stopped Kogi from building schools and owning the place until now? The two parties should be able to sit down, discuss investment and what is coming out. I wish all Nigerians will know how much oil we produce, how much comes to Nigeria and how such money are being expended.
You dwell much on foreign policies in your presentation. What do you think is wrong with Nigeria’s foreign policies?
At first, we were more like Father Christmas trying to help others. Yes, Africa we must help ourselves, but in terms of foreign policies whatever you have you are expecting some things back even in terms of relationship. Virtually all the countries we have helped are the ones competing with us or blocking our chances. Even smaller countries because of our size that should have been a plus for us, they use it to fight us; they don’t want us to be everywhere to make sure we don’t get what we are looking for. For instance, Saudi-Arabia is deporting Nigerians, I don’t know if Saudi Arabia has changed her policies because for Hajj we know there is no discussion on guide, but Ummrah we are aware that any lady going must have a guide. But if Saudi Arabia wanted to do that for Hajj they needed to let us know. The same embassy gave the people the visa they should have insisted that any lady without guide, we are not giving visa.
Your vision three 2020 for Niger State seemes to have been abandoned in your second term. Why is this so?
No. The issue is that we have laid foundation and we are building on it. And the most important part is that people are sharing the vision. People may say it has been abandoned because we have lessened the discussion because people have imbibed it. In primary schools, you hear the students talking about vision three 2020; at least we have achieved that part of sharing the vision. And now it is the translation which in any way you cannot see until you see the results.
Your name keeps coming up in the 2015 speculations. Are you running for higher office after now?
I am hearing the rumour too. But you see you can’t stop people from doing analysis. I have told people severally that when I was approached to come and go for the House of Representatives in 1983, I was a student then, I would go and write my exams and come back for campaign and I won. This time I was praying to be appointed head of service in 2007,but I was drafted to go and run for the governor, so it would be foolhardy of me to say I want to be this or that. But I prepare my mind and myself with enough knowledge to be able to say if it comes to me, I will not be caught unawares. But I have not spoken to anybody that I have any ambition. I am very elated to find that some people feel I am qualified to run for whatever office.
