The Director General of the International Labour Organisation (ILO), Guy Ryder, recently visited Nigeria, the first by any ILO leader since the first visit in 1959. Ryder had series of meetings with stakeholders in the labour sector during the visit and attended the Global Youth Employment Forum, which was held outside Geneva, Switzerland, for the first time. In this interview with TONY AKOWE, he speaks on his engagements while in Nigeria, the world of work and lots more.
ONE issue that has been in contention between the Nigerian government and organised labour is the absence of the Labour Advisory Council. Labour believes that government is deliberately sabotaging the council which has not existed for the past ten years. What is ILO’s view on the existence of the council?
Yes, this is one the issues that came up in all my discussions, especially with organised labour and I ask the question, why do you think that it has not been active in recent years? I think that there are two things responsible: One is the simple commitment to make the council operate in an effective way. But also, I have heard that this is a question of political will and the desire of government to interact with employers and workers. I think that the desire now is that when we have a new Minister in place, is to try and do this. The ILO is an organisation that consists of government, employers and workers. We are the international house of social dialogue and tripartisim. So, where ever I go, I always try to promote the tripartite cooperation and I see no reason why I should do any less than that in Nigeria than any other country. If one can detect lack of confidence in the different partners, I think the best way to improve that confidence is to give more positive space to issues of social dialogue. I hope that by moving in this direction and reactivating whatever needs to be reactivated, we can boost the confidence.
We are aware that the first ILO office in Africa was established in Nigeria. Since then, what has been the relationship between the ILO and Nigeria?
Over the years, there has been good cooperation between the ILO and the Nigerian government and we have put in place a lot of plans with the government. There is the employment plan, the international migration plan, plan on health and safety; there is a draft plan on youth employment; among others. The important thing now is not to draw up new plans, but to seek implementation of these plans and I think this requires the political attention of Ministry and government and to a certain degree, the investment such as political and financial investment in making these plans a reality. I hope that as we draw up a new country programme with our Nigerian colleagues, implementation of the old ones will be top and rather than draw up new ones, there should be people focused programmes.
President Muhammadu Buhari requested for the upgrading of the ILO office in Abuja and the placement of more Nigerians in the ILO headquarters in Geneva. How would you respond to this request?
The question about upgrading the ILO office in Abuja has been put to me. You may be surprised to hear that when I travel, one of the issues that often come up is improving the ILO offices in the countries we go to. My organisation has a budget which is not increasing. That means that if I invest more in the office in Abuja, I will have to invest less in another country. You will understand that these are subjects of concrete and difficult political negotiations in my organisation. I would have to convince my governing body on the wisdom of making more resources available. I have been approached by all parties government, workers and employers on the need to invest more in upgrading the office here. It’s a good thing because I think that meant that our partners in Nigeria value the work of the ILO and they want us to do more. If our work was not valued, I will not be receiving these requests. But I am not in a position right now to say when these requests will be acted upon because it depends on my governing body. But the message has been well received.
At the Global Youth Employment Forum, different economies were advocated. Which of these economies would you recommend?
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At the Forum, there were five working groups looking at different aspects of the future of work. There is the green economy, then the blue economy which is the oceanic economy where many states rely heavily on ocean resources. The Orange economy is a new one for me. This is the creative economy that relies on sculpture and arts and Nigeria has a comparative advantage in this area, the purple economy which is the care economy. The professionalisation of the care that we give to all the people and our children and lastly, the silver economy which is the digital economy. When you ask which of all these is the right one, I will say all of them. There is job creation potential in all of these areas, but it won’t happen automatically. I don’t think anybody should sit back and wait for any of the economies to grow. Like we have said in this centenary celebration of the ILO, the future of work depend on all of us, whether it is determined by technology or robot or artificial intelligence, it won’t even be decided by the market. It will be decided by the joint efforts of government, employers and workers in our society. So, the future is in our own hands.
One of the major problems facing job creation in Nigeria is the issue of infrastructural deficit. What would you recommend for Nigeria, considering your experience in dealing with other countries?
I heard from all sides that there is a major deficit in infrastructure in Nigeria. From the employers’ community, they referred to the physical infrastructure of communication, energy infrastructure, digital infrastructure and they felt that these constraints are having on the business community. I think that it is quite telling that Nigeria was recent in its ratification of the Africa Continental Free Trade agreement. Beside that there was the feeling that there was a disadvantage resulting from deficit in infrastructure which places the country at a disadvantage. I think it is important that these infrastructural problems are dealt with. There is no short cut to this and it is not the ILO that has the answer in its pocket. It is a very simple reality which is the fact that infrastructural facilities need to be invested in. There are international institutions that can assist Nigeria on this like the World Bank and other Development Banks. We are not the people who bring the big money to Nigeria.
Daily, there is the discussion about decent job. A woman selling by the road side is believed to have a job, same with the person sweeping the roads. From the view point of the ILO, what actually is a job?
It is a very difficult question to answer. We are talking about the future of work and somebody sweeping the road out there is working. But we need to organise the world of work in such a way that people have access to decent activity, a decent job. That is why the ILO insists very strongly that it is not good enough that because we have lots of people without work, therefore any work that makes you earn a few naira notes is good enough. We should set the bar higher for society to be aiming at offering people decent work, which means a job where you earn enough money to give yourself a decent living, where you have social protection, where your basic rights as a worker are protected and where issues affecting you are not done through unilateral decisions but by social dialogue. This is our concept of what a job should be.
While addressing the Global Youth Employment Forum, you said that about 255 million youths across the globe were either not employed or are not in any form of education. You also talked about another 135 million youths working, but live in poverty. This is an alarming figure. What is the way out of this?
The statistics are quite disturbing. The whole question of education and training and the provision of training access to young people through education and training is of fundamental importance. Anybody who has worked in the labour market and in the world of work knows how connected labour system and education system are. The world of work is a knowledge based economy where competitive advantage relies on the acquisition and use of appropriate knowledge. But I think there is a link between employment and education and jobs become more evident. There are two or three points I need to make. One, is despite the changes in technology, the need to acquire digital skills is quite often talked about. The most important thing for any child is to acquire from an early age is to acquire basic skills. These are social skills that in future will enable the child to deal with people in a way that the labour market demands. I think that those foundation skills are sometimes not given the enough attention. I think that Nigeria, just like any country in the world should give top priority to universal access to basic quality education. If there are hindrances in that, this will automatically stall the future of the labour market because you will be generating people who do not have the fundamental skill of employability. After that, I think there needs to be greater inter action alignment of primary, secondary, university education with the private sector on the need to revive the sector. Those countries which do best in terms of youth employment and skills are those countries which have a very tight system of cooperation between the government and the private sector in skill formation. The very best skill formation systems are those that combine on the job training and class room training. That might sound like some distant reality, but the point I am making is that the private sector employers also have a role to play, not only in financing education, but also doing it in accordance with what they need. We do work with private industries around the world in giving skills to young people. I interacted with the Abuja Enterprise Industry and there is the hope that they will assist a lot of young people to get their businesses started. The flip side of this can be child labour. There is one thing that provoke child labour more than anything else and that is the non availability of school education. Young people do frequently fall into child labour when they don’t have the chance to go school. We have to make efforts to get them to school if that school is available. Yes, there are issues of poverty, there are issues of supporting families and we can understand that. But it seems to me that the real issue is that of giving opportunity to children to be in school.
You gave a lot of accolade to Nigerians as very intelligent people. Does that mean you are considering request of the President to accommodate more Nigerians at the ILO headquarters?
I have confirmed that. Whether I am here in Nigeria interacting with your country men and women, whether in my country or in other countries of the world, you can’t but the impressed with the vibrancy and energy that Nigerians give out. Nigeria needs to take advantage of that and so is the ILO. Like I will say everywhere, the ILO has the interest in acquiring the skills and contributions of Nigerians in our secretariat. It is not by coincidence that my Director for Africa is a Nigerian. That is a message that we don’t just understand, but we have acted upon. Recruitment into the ILO is through a competitive process. When good candidates are presented to us from Nigeria, they will certainly receive good attention from me and my colleagues. So, you can take that assurance as my response.
After all said and done, how would you rate Nigeria?
It is very difficult for me to give a rating to Nigeria. If I do that around the world, I am going to make some people very angry. What I would say is that Nigeria is very present in the International Labour Organisation. The government of Nigeria is a member of our governing body, the NLC has always been represented in international labour system and its workers representative on our board as its President is a member of our governing board and the employers are also represented. So, Nigeria is very present and has always been very present and is a strong contributor to our organisation. Without giving you rating, I am extremely grateful that Nigeria is ever present in our organisation.
The issue of new minimum wage and its implementation is the current issue between labour and the Nigerian government. What is your advice to them on this issue?
I am very pleased to hear that there has been agreement on the basic level after an energetic process of negotiation. I also understand there are ongoing discussions about consequential adjustment. I have not been involved in that discussion neither is the ILO involved. It is for Nigerians to resolve. But what I would say is that the ILO often gives advice on minimum wage. We believe that minimum wage should take into account to a lot of things. It should full account of the basic needs of working people and their families, what will allow for basic existence. It should also take into account the real productive capacity of the economy. If you pay beyond what production really permits, you will realise that you will not make any progress because it will be artificial. I really hope that the minimum wage process will take these into account.
Again, privatisation of government enterprises has often created conflict between government and labour in Nigeria. What is your suggestion on this?
The issue of privatisation is a controversial issue around the world. I am yet to encounter a trade union movement anywhere that welcomes privatisation. Generally, they are reluctant to accept privatisation for a number of reasons. One, they often believe that the process of privatisation will threaten the jobs of workers they represent; jobs will be lost in the process of privatisation. In a more general way, they feel that certain services in the industries should be in public possession because they are of strategic importance to the people and should not be allowed for market forces to direct. We have seen many discussions on privatisation around the world. You could argue the merits of those processes, but what is important is that when privatisation is pursued, it should be on the basis of an objective business belief rather than an ideological belief that privatisation is more appropriate in a public enterprise.
At the 2019 International Labour Conference, the rise of new technology and the threat it posed to jobs was topmost on the agenda. How do you think this issue can best be addressed, especially in third world countries?
Of all the challenges that Nigeria faces today, I will not put the job displacing effect of robotics or artificial intelligence at the top level of the problem. I think that Nigeria has much more interest in and has advantage to gain in embracing competitive advantage in new technology which render the economy efficient and produce the kind of competitive advantage which I think outweigh the job displacement system which exist. There is a belief out there that technology will displace jobs on a massive scale and throw up a period of unemployment. That is not the position I will subscribe to. I think that technology will lead to changes in the world of work, but it will not be to the disadvantage of jobs. I think we should look for ways of managing the system for the benefit of society in general.
With the growing number of young people being unemployed, how should the issue of unemployment be tackled?
When young people don’t have access to acquiring skills, the risk is that when they arrive the labour market, they will be unemployable and that leaves them with a small prospect of employability. This is not something that is unique to Nigeria, neither is Nigeria dispensed of this problem. I do think that investment in ensuring universal access to education and quality of basic education is a global challenge and is so recognised in the UN 2030 Sustainable Development agenda
What is your suggestion to Nigeria on the issue of social dialogue and industrial harmony?
In all the meetings that I was able to have with government, employers and labour, we spoke very frankly. I think there is a very frank and honest recognition of the challenges. I read the speech of President Buhari on democracy day when he said that Nigerian population is projected to double by mid century to become the third most populous country in the world. It is quite obvious that the government understands very clearly the job creation challenge ahead. Also, I think the government has taken this into consideration in the discussions that led to the ratification of the African Continental Free Trade Agreement and the challenges ahead. The real challenge however remain to translate these understanding of issues into practical, well resourced concrete policy responses. I hope the ILO can give assistance towards that endeavour.