Senator Shehu Sani is the Chairman of the Senate Committee on Local and Foreign Debts. In this interview with TONY AKOWE, he speaks on his feud with Kaduna State Governor Nasir El-Rufai, the anti-corruption battle, frosty legislative/executive relationship and other issues.
Two years of the current National Assembly, how has it been?
The legislature began on a turbulent footing with the internal crisis in the APC about the election of Dr. Bukola Saraki as the Senate President. That crisis significantly affected the unity, the solidarity and the progress of the party for a long time. It also affected the ability and the capacity of the party to perform at the national level. There were acrimonious and bitter feelings among the senators and members of the House of Representatives as a result of that crisis. But later, resolutions sets in as a result of the Senators coming together to resolve their personal political differences especially those from the APC. That became a plus and a positive point to which the legislature started this new journey. In the last two years, there have been achievements and failures as well as challenges. The achievements has to do with the number of bills passed by the 8th senate which is unprecedented in the history of Nigeria. There were relevant motions which reflects the nation’s socio economic and political sphere and motions that addresses lives and livelihoods of Nigerians. This is also unprecedented in the history of the National Assembly. At the beginning, there was a discord between the legislature and the executive arm of government which later smoothen to a good working relationship. But there are a number of challenges, one of which was the trial of the Senate President at the Code of Conduct Tribunal. This seriously created a situation of uncertainty in the heart and mind of many members of the National Assembly. Also, the friction that existed between the legislature and the executive arm also created am atmosphere of distrust. The processes of the non confirmation of some appointed and nominated public office holders, the crisis with the EFCC Chairman and the Custom boss, Hamid Ali was also another sore point between the legislature and the executive. However, the most important thing is that the Senate has been able to prove that it is not a rubber stamp senate, but a Senate that is prepared and committed to asserting it’s independence as an arm of government and a senate that can stand up to the excesses of the executive. So, these are some frame work of success, challenges and failure that can be said to be the narrative of the 8th senate in the last two years.
There are those who believe that the current fight against corruption is lopsided. What is your take on this.
First, I will say that no nation can develop in an atmosphere of corruption. A corrupt ruling elites see power as a means to personally enrich themselves and undermine the economy of the country and impoverish the people. Corruption in post independent Nigeria has been the exclusive preserve of Nigerian’s elite political ruling class. We could have gone far beyond our present position if not for the cancer of corruption. We could haven achieve the height of economic progress and prosperity if not for corruption. Nigeria would have been a leader in the emerging economic powers like Malaysia, Indonesia and Brazil as well as South Korea if we had a patriotic, corrupt free political ruling establishment that have the vision, mission and govern the country well. But since 1999, the expectations of Nigerians have moved from hope to despair. If we must fight corruption, we can only fight it if we have no sacred cows and it is all encompassing and all reaching. If we are to fight corruption, let it be that the same intensity you do it with Senators and members of the house of Representatives will be the same intensity you fight against civil servants, ministers and state governors. Nigerian’s anti corruption crusade is mostly focused on people outside the executive arm of government. That was why I brought the formula of deodorant and insecticide. When the issue of the plunder of IDP funds was brought before the national Assembly and I was tasked with the responsibility of chairing a committee to investigate it, one thing that came to my mind was that this will be a test case for this government to prove whether the anti corruption crusade is about fighting corruption in Nigeria or fighting political enemies and people that are outside the executive. From what has happened, it is very clear to me and the whole country that the report which indicted the SGF and made it clear how people in position of authority are enriching themselves was a text case which would have completely destroy the reputation of the Buhari administration. There were attempts to white wash the people indicted which could not be done as a result of protests by Nigerians as well as the facts and figures that were attached to the final report which we presented. One thing we should have at the back of our mind is that we live in a country where there is more emphasis on anti corruption at the Federal level than at the state level. You can never known how much is stolen in the states until the governors are out of power and exist as ordinary citizens.
Are you satisfied with the implementation of your committee report?
I am not satisfied because our recommendations was that people who looted the treasury, diverted funds for IDP should be relieved of their positions and tried. But all we have heard from the executive arm of government is that the SGF is suspended and they are waiting for the President to take a final decision. Why can’t the acting President take a decision? When you are acting, you can sign a budget, sign a cheque and do other things. So, as Acting President, you should be able to act on this.
You head the Senate Committee on foreign and local debts. From information available to you, what is the actual debt profile of Nigeria?
Nigerian’s total debt, both domestic and foreign stands at over 62 billion dollars. 40 billion dollars of that is domestic debt, while the rest is foreign debt. Actually, foreign debt stands at about 10.2 billion dollars. With the approval before us for different infrastructural projects and from states applying for loans, we may shoot up to as high as between 80 to 90 billion dollars. That is why we have to be very careful. Our experts will say that we are within the safe treshood of debt. But we should also know that this could skyrocket to an unbeatable limit. So far, almost all the 36 states have applied for approval from the national Assembly through the Presidency for loans. We will be guided by a number of things. First is expert opinion on these loans applications, then conditions attached to the loans, the payment plans and public opinion. We should know that debt is a new form of colonialism where the western developed world are colonising us by making sure that we are pinned down to debt. Most of these debts is still about us, our children and our grand children irrespective of who is giving it. When I took office as Chairman of Senate Committee on Local and Foreign Debt, I found out that almost all states of the federation have, in the last 20 to 25 years collected so much money as loan that you cannot verify the kind of project they have used it for. If we cannot leave behind for our children and grand children verifiable projects for their socio economic development, we must not leave for them a legacy of debt that they have to spend the rest of their lives paying. That is why we will not rush this country into more debt. Many of the governors collected money simply to settle political cronies and dispensed it as largese and many of the projects that the money was supposed to have been spent on can not actually be verified. This is why, this time around, we have to be very careful.
Many of these states seeking approval for foreign loans received the bail out fund from the Federal government and also collected the Paris loan refund and yet are unable to pay salaries. Is the senate not worried about this?
Well, it is worrisome because the Paris loan refund is not money that will continuously come from Paris to our state coffer. This is money we got by accident of history, which could have been put to good use. The concern is that when you continue to borrow to pay salaries, there will be a time when you will no longer be able to borrow or pay salaries. We need to fundamentally restructure governance in Nigeria in such a way that we can only be responsible for things we can afford to take care of.
There is this belief your constant friction and criticism of Governor El Rural is because you have your eyes on the governorship in 2019. What is the true position.
You are a journalist who spent over two decades in Kaduna and within those periods, you were witness to history of how I have, over the years spoken out against injustices, bad governance, corruption and tyranny both at the local and national levels. Anyone who know the history of Shehu Sani know me as an activist. I am not an activist for child rights only, I am not an activist against corruption and medicare. I am a civil rights activist and has consistently spoken out against injustice. Shehu Sani spoke out during the time of Babangida against tyranny and corruption, spoke out under Abacha administration and even against Shonekan. I have led protest match and strike action against different governments at the national levels.
At the state level, right from 1999 when Makarfi was in power to when Namadi Sambo was there as governor to Yakowa and Ramallan Yero, I never remained silent in speaking out against injustice. So, who is El Rural? He came and met me in my crusade against tyranny, bad governance and against inhumanity.
Nobody knew El Rufai before 1999. It was from 1999 that his name started ringing bell. But everyone knew that Shehu Sani has been in the terrain. So, speaking out against El Rufai’s policies and programmes is in line with my principles and ideology, my belief and what I have been known for. I don’t need to be a Senator to speak out against injustice which I have spoken out against before I became a Senator. I don’t need to be a governor to speak out against injustice. My position and submission on issues of Kaduna state has to do with protecting the rights of the people I represent.
What I want everyone to understand is that the governor of Kaduna state is a convertee to change and a convertee to the anti corruption crusade by being a member of the APC. He came from the PDP, he is part of the PDP and an alumnus of the PDP. I have never been an alumnus of the PDP. APC provided a cover for people from all backgrounds in its quest for power in 2015. Part of the quarrel within the party has to do with the fact that we came from different political tendencies and ideologies, united with the common aim of removing the PDP and injecting Jonathan from power.
After doing that, our personal differences and political divergence and differences came to the fore. My submissions against him has to do with the fact that his policies are not in tandem with the promises we made to the electorates in Kaduna state. His policies are anti people, stands antagonistic to the concept and philosophy of change. His policies inflicts pains and hardship on the poor and under privileged. His policies has to do with appeasing an elitist few and imposing the crude form of Adam Smith philosophy against the people that has toiled day and night and suffered to bring us to power.
Whatever I say about him and his policies may not be fair because it is coming from me seen to be his opponent. If you want to get the true picture of Shehu Sani and El Rufai, you have to go and ask the common people on ground in Kaduna and I believe that you are also part of Kaduna state and so knowledgeable to know their views. In the last two years under the El Rufai administration, we have proven to be a bad alternative to the people we removed from power. Have you heard any PDP member decamping to the APC in Kaduna in the last two years? There is non because he has destroyed the party.
The Chairman of the party in the state recognised by the national secretariat is not the one he recognised as governor. Many people who worked hard to enthrone this government are marginalised and now, the party is on crisis. The revelations of how billions of naira worth of contract was awarded to family members, friends and political cronies in the state also tells you the way government operates in Kaduna. The question I have asked is, when have you ever seen the President in Kaduna to commission any project? or have you seen any multi million naira project being completed in Kaduna in the last two years?There is virtually none. Most of his governance is about propaganda in the media. The unfortunately thing is that Journalists in Kaduna now behave like cawards because of the tyranny of El Rufai. In the last two years,about seven Journalists have been sent to jail for writing stories considered unfavourable to the government of the state. Some of them are even going to court presently. It has reached such a bad point that some them receive directive on what to write from the government house. This is what journalism has become in Kaduna state today. They don’t write stories critical of the governor, but fabricate stories to remain in the good books of the governor.
What is the implication of this on the party in the state in 2019
Well, if the party is divided against itself and the chance of winning remain very slim. But we also know very well that the PDP in the state is not in a very good and healthy position. So, the task is before the national secretariat of the party to reconcile and address the issues and save the party from destruction. If not, we are not going anywhere. How can a whole state governor demolish the house of an APC National Vice Chairman because he think that the man is in support of Shehu Sani. That is wrong and is no democracy. The PDP has never demolished any body’s house in Kaduna because of personal or political difference. So why should we do that against our own? This is to show you the level of acrimony in the party
What is your take on the quit notice and counter notice to Nigerians by Nigerians
First I condemn the Biafran separatist agitation. This country is indissoluble and people who are campaigning for the Independent state of Biafra will fail. I also condemn the quit notice against the Igbos living in the north because if the Igbos living in the north share the Biafra dream, they will not be living in the north. The fact that they live in the north show that they are a pillar for a united Nigeria. However, in as much as Igbos in the north must be protected, so also Hausa people in the southern part of Nigeria and Fulanis must be protected. I will not accept the killing of an Igbo man in kano and will also not accept the killing Hausa man in Shagamu, Asaba or in Enugu.
If an Igbo man can have a certificate of occupancy in Kano, Kaduna or Katsina, a hausa man should also be given one where ever he lives. Also, states that are coming out with laws that target Fulanis people are doing the wrong thing. If you make laws that seeks to combat the criminality and murderous activities of the herdsmen, that is right. But if you make laws that generalises and criminalises the whole Fulanis, deny them the right of residency and freedom of movement, that is wrong and that is as evil as the quit notice given by the Arewa youths.
