Category: Weekend Treat

Chief Albert K. Horsfall is an administrator, author and politician. He was a Director-General of the State Security Service (SSS) and ex-Chairman of the defunct Oil Mineral Producing Areas Development Commission (OMPADEC). In this interview with Assistant Editor, LINUS OBOGO, he criticises the involvement of the National Assembly in the ongoing constitution review, arguing that it exposes the lawmakers to the temptation of tampering with the organic law of the land to suit their own purposes. He also speaks on Boko Haram and sundry issues. Excerpts:

The National Assembly Committee on Constitution Review is conducting zonal hearings with a view to coming out with what could be described as a “people’s constitution”. What, in your view, should form the plank of the review?

The much talked about constitution review is a good idea. When the polity becomes unduly heated as it is at present, it becomes necessary to carefully examine the framework on which our relationship as a nation is founded in order to ensure that the organic law which governs these relationships is strengthened or modified to ensure that the system functions better. The First Republic constitution lasted for just six years when the Grundnorm was rudely removed by the 1966 coup. We did not sufficiently practice or experiment on that constitution which I still think was the best for Nigeria. When the 1966 coup happened I was a young ASP in the Police Special Branch. The Personal Assistant to the then Commissioner of the Special Branch, was Chief T.A. Fagbola of blessed memory, an outstanding statesman and leader. I recall what he said to me when I congratulated him following that coup believing as I did at that time that it was a good thing that the coup had happened and removed the ‘corrupt’ politicians from office. He said to me “Albert, we will be lucky to recover in 25 years from the tragedy and damage which has happened to this country by this military coup.” I did not really understand and I quietly felt within me a shock and surprise that my boss appeared to support the corrupt political dispensation at that time. Now I realise the truth of Chief Fagbola’s prediction, and it has sadly dawned on me that the damage caused has not lasted for 25 years but continues perhaps up to this date.

The military managed as best they could to pilot the affairs of this country, howbeit inappropriately and inadequately, and in the process of trying to sort things out and give us a fresh constitutional framework, introduced the presidential system of government based on the American model. The problem is, we have not been able to fully understand, follow through and effectively implement the American system of presidential constitution. We have actually followed it somewhat half way and allowed our background and orientation to drive our attitudes towards the presidential system in a confused way. For instance, at the local government level we have completely muddled up the practice as it works in America. Above all, our orientation based on our local background of chieftaincy, Obaship or Emirship, where the chief or traditional rulers as we call them own everything in the land, giving them the right to give to whom they wish and deny from whom they equally wish. That mentality seems to have taken hold on our political leadership at almost all levels. The average office holder in any arm of government – executive, legislative, and judiciary – sees his office as his personal fiefdom where he holds and wields absolute power and authority – including complete authority over public funds, the law enforcement authorities, and so on and so forth. He doesn’t seem to like the notion that the office he holds and the responsibility thereof is held in trust, and that he must be guided by the supreme law of the land, or any law for that matter. The average ruler actually sees the constitution and – the rule of law – as a hindrance to his authority and does his best to avoid using it as guide to perform his function.

The clear expression of my point is symbolised by the practical expression of our corrupt political situation starting from the local government level and even at the political party level. At the highest political level, for instance, the leader of the party – and there are only very few exception in this regard – controls and actually ensures the selection of candidate of his own choice, to go to the legislature at any level. He would in most cases if he were already in government, pay for their election expenses from funds usually available to him through the public purse. As legislators they are sometimes, aside from the regular emolument, paid special honourarium weekly or monthly and accorded other favours and inducements. Worse still, in some states before selection prospective candidates are ‘persuaded’ to sign up to some secret association or ‘cult’, and then finally when ‘elected’ such persons are placed under mentors who are usually senior party or cult members and they monitor their activities, behaviour, etc. to ensure that such ‘legislators’ toe the line prescribed by the leader. In effect, in many cases the emergent legislator’s words and activities are pre-circumscribed to ensure that he keeps in ‘line’. Those who dare not to do so are denied the various facilities stated earlier and marked out for premature retirement from party and perhaps politics altogether. At the end of the day, the average legislator has completely lost his freedom to perform based on his conviction or even on the declared party manifesto or credo. The other restrictive control measures that the top echelon of the political system appears to have embarked upon include the infusion into the judiciary of politicians’ cronies and family members. There is an evidently emerging trend where the family members of leading politicians are progressively emerging as judicial officers. This cannot be accidental or coincidental and this trend needs to be watched carefully.

In making a fresh constitution for Nigeria or amending the existing one, there is need for caution, especially against the prospect of ensuring that an emergent or amended constitution does not serve the select interest of a few over the ordinary Nigerian.

For instance, we are still hearing a lot of talk by those who will play the principal roles in amending the constitution about the issue of immunity for certain office holders. There are indications in a number of states of huge and unjustifiable pension schemes for retired public office holders which will draw deep into the resources of the state which in many cases will serve the interest of young politicians who after retirement will perhaps be on this side of the planet for quite a few more decades. The country is at present undergoing huge burden of corruption in public places. To land ourselves in a situation where a public officer may have abused his authority while in office and still chip in to the public resources even when he has left office, is to say the least, a major challenge to the public psyche. Especially when efforts are being made to ensure through immunity clauses and such other arrangements that errant public office holders will not be held to account for their excesses whilst in office. I did say earlier in this interview that the First Republic constitution which was rudely truncated in 1966 remains our best constitution. Even though a republican constitution it provided a parliamentary and cabinet system of government. The beauty of it is that at the appropriate levels the members of the executive arm are also in the legislature where they function as legislators and become used to the democratic system of operating their offices and particularly of accountability. This is a system where in parliament they would be confronted with facts in open debate and give public answers which the ordinary citizen has access to and be informed of the manner in which he is being governed. It is my belief that the national interest and the interest of the ordinary citizen will best be served under the parliamentary and cabinet system of government where the public officer will openly account for his activities.

Should the legislature make, review or amend the Nigerian Constitution?

My sincere views are that the legislators by themselves cannot be the competent organ to make or amend the Nigerian Constitution. We have all been crying wolf about the military made constitution. Bad as that may be, one can regard the military in the circumstance, as a disinterested party. Can the legislators be seen or regarded as such a disinterested party? For them therefore to be the ones to make, review or amend the constitution which is to be regarded as their guide for making ordinary laws and other regulations to my mind is clearly inappropriate. As such I will like to thank the legislators for their present initiatives on this matter but I would advise them to handover the matter of constitution making to the appropriate authority – the people. I wish to emphasise that neither the executive, that is the presidency, the legislature nor the judiciary who will be the ultimate instrument to implement, practice and interpret the constitution should be the body to make, review or amend it. Such attempt by any of these bodies will expose them to the temptation of tampering with the organic law of the land to suit their own purposes – which makes them masters and not the servants of the people! They should expose the process to a national referendum or a national conference of ordinary Nigerians who will produce the organic laws under which they choose to be governed.

One issue that has dominated national discourse in recent times is the clamour for state police. Is Nigeria ripe for the establishment of state police?

The Governors Forum made a statement through their chairman that it is their wish, and placed it on the table for constitutional amendment. The South West is known to be very strong proponents for state police, and to some extent the South East governors have taken a similar position as the South West. In the South-South the vocal minority seem to be advocating the same. I would like to sound a word of caution on the issue of state police. Many of those at the helm of political leadership may be doing so to serve some selfish interest. The truth is that the ordinary policeman is there to protect the average Nigerian citizen. You do not need to go far in order to confirm that even at present there is a tendency of the strong to use the police to oppress or suppress the weak. Such excesses are so far generally checked by the fact that the police is monolithic; with its hierarchy stretching up from the community level to the Inspector-General who is in the Abuja headquarters. Therefore the average aggrieved Nigerian citizen can start with the constable in his community to deal with his grievances at his community or local village, and without much cost can refer his matter from the constable to the DPO, from the DPO to the area command, from the area command to the state commissioner of police, from the state commissioner of police to the zonal AIG and eventually to the IGP. He can do all of these without much cost except the piece of paper in which he writes his complaints or the transport cost which will take him to all of these places to verbally lodge his complaints. The Nigeria Police may be accused of being plagued by a nest of corruption but its hierarchical arrangement offers some of the best opportunities to the under privileged Nigerian to make his case and be heard and indeed to ultimately receive justice. But when you remove this protection from the ordinary citizen you are further widening or stretching the thin layer of protection which the ordinary Nigerian citizen has so far enjoyed.

Judging from what the new breed of politicians have so far enacted from 1999 to date, it will be interesting to note that the tendency has been to consolidate power in their own hands and thereby give less and less room to the ordinary citizen to express himself and exercise his God-given rights of citizenship. During the period when in the South-South zone, for instance, cult and youth militancy activities evolved, the ugly gunfights, killings and operation of cult members and youth militancy which were taking place under the full glare of the governments of this zone; the police and other security agencies were there but could not take any meaningful action. This is because the heads of these formations had been intimidated or brought under the subjection of the local political leadership, and all these crimes were openly taking place with no one to counter them.

The enforcement and monitoring authorities were intimidated by the real or implied threats of one form of sanction or another and so connived, turned the blind eye or totally ignored their duty to the state and citizenry.

Even the media which during the Abacha era rose up stoutly to defend the interest of the ordinary citizenry were for whatever reasons, for almost three years, unable to effectively expose these ugly incidents of killing and maiming which were taking place extensively in some of these states. So the country and the outside world were kept in the dark throughout the embryonic stages of these ugly developments.

Many of our citizens of the present generation are not familiar with what went on in the First Republic when we had local government police, native authority (NA) police, native court, etc. In those days the political leader or some powerful Emir or Oba will direct the police – especially the NA police – to subjectively arrest a political opponent or anyone who insulted them or dared to question their excesses. For any flimsy excuse imaginable persons were locked up contrary to the law. In the North as in the West the powerful politicians and traditional heads held sway!

The NA, local government police and the native courts exercised cruel and crude forms of ‘justice’. There was the report, in those days, from one of these areas where the president of a customary court was in his bathroom, and having been informed that a prominent member of his party had been arrested and sentenced to three months in prison in another region, for which a revenge arrest had been made in his (the customary court’s jurisdiction), shouted back from his bathroom “I sentence the man you arrested to six months imprisonment.” He thus passed sentence on an alleged suspect he had not even seen! Let Nigerians and our present day politicians not forget that all these excesses and more brought about the crises which truncated the life of the First Republic and the series of unpleasant events which followed thereafter!

Even in the then Eastern Region where they did not have the local government police, the Nigeria police were under pressure to toe the line of the political leadership. But the situation in Eastern Nigeria compared to the rest of the other regions was generally different because there, the Nigeria Police headed by the CP based in Enugu received his operational orders from the Lagos-based IG. And depending on the stature of who was commissioner of police, the police force in the then Eastern Nigeria generally performed well and operated to protect the interest of all and sundry. One will readily recall the tussle for control of the police force in the then Eastern Nigeria between the CP’s office and the Premier of the then Eastern Nigeria. There were such tough officers like Ikeazor, otherwise called Keazor. Or the likes of the ‘No nonsense’ Commissioner Ibekwe of the Onitsha province usually referred to as ‘MA Natural.’ By the strength of such distinguished officers the interest of the ordinary citizen was generally protected and the law was applied somewhat properly in the interest of the common man in the then Eastern Region.

But come to think of it, the series of crises and violent eruptions since 2007 resulting in youth militancy and deaths sometimes based on tribal and religious lines; were these issues being handled by a state or regional police per se the resultant effect would obviously have been different and the breakup of the federation of Nigeria might have come sooner than 2015 allegedly predicted by the Americans. Nor would the country have adequately dealt with the emergent Boko Haram and the earlier situation of Maitatsine had we tackled them under the rubric of state police or regional police. I would like all and sundry to carefully consider this matter, especially the governors, some of whom are at present at the forefront of the advocacy of state police. Let me remind them that some of them may become the victims of the state police in the hands of the very individuals whom they may have installed as their replacement as governors, but who may thereafter become their political opponents and bitter enemies, and may like to have them in jail.

The House of Representatives recently threatened to impeach President Goodluck Jonathan over the poor implementation of the 2012 Appropriation Act. What is your take on this?

The impeachment threat by the National Assembly appears to have become a political weapon in recent times to shake-up the executive arm of government whenever it is felt that that arm is either not performing up to expectation or is not taking the legislative arm of government seriously. It was threatened several times during the Obasanjo administration. But as always, the legislators who all belong to one political party or another know how to find accommodation to resolve their differences. I am sure that even this time around they will come back together to resolve whatever differences they have with one another.

How do you deal with the political controversy between the North and the South-South?

The North and South-South had in the past formed close alliance on various national issues whether at election time, constitution making time, or collaborating in the Nigerian Civil War. In politics, Northern candidates for president or other national offices will normally always expect to get the backing of the South-South. Similarly, the South-South would usually expect to receive the backing of the North in political and other national issues that affect the South-South. For instance during the Civil War, Northern soldiers and politicians were the backbone of South-South support and creation of states. The North was our main ally that executed the Civil War in collaboration with the South-South and, of course, our close friends from the South-West. So the Obasanjo-convened National Confab was the first time when the South-south began to realise that the North was actually unwilling and unable to give political support to the South-South on the twin issues of getting a president from the South-South and on the issue of resource control which were the two main planks the zone agitated for at that conference. Delegates from the South-South were rather puzzled at the vehemence of the opposition of the North to their cause. Somehow, by providence and divine intervention, the South-South now has the president and the presidency in the person of Dr. Goodluck Jonathan. The political election that led to his victory at the polls was free and fair and the candidate won the election roundly. There was no question about that. And thankfully the North actually voted enmasse for Goodluck Jonathan.

The administration of Governor Rauf Aregbesola has been in the saddle in Osun State for two years, in this interview with DAPO THOMAS in Osogbo, the governor discusses the accomplishments of his administration, South West regional integration, his relationship with his predecessor, Olagunsoye Oyinlola, and sundry national issues.

Can you do a reflection of your activities within this period and confess if you are satisfied with the progress made so far.

Let me start by saying that we have rescued the state from financial insolvency, we have created awareness, first for the state and citizenry and a new image for the state through a phenomenal rebranding. The rebranding of the state is not just in giving the state a new image, a new appearance, new symbols, but we reinvigorated the history, the culture of the people to rekindle a value system that was almost extinct. The combination of all of these inspired the populace to a height that was never expected. Alongside with that, we initiated a youth empowerment scheme that was unparalleled. Yes, naysayers and some critics pooh-poohed our efforts at youth empowerment engagement but observers of social affairs will no doubt agree that the engagement in itself is commendable not only in terms of preventing social disorderliness and vices, it equally redirects the energy of the youth to social and community work, which are not only desirable but are very much necessary. Nobody will deny the fact that hitherto the entire environment was filthy, depressing and unattractive. With the engagement of the “O Yes” Cadets and our sanitation exercise, environmental cleanliness, vegetation control by the roadside, we now have a cleaner society, hygienic environment and beautiful state. Those are the fall outs of the fact that these youth engaged in such essential community and social services, would have been indolent had they not been so engaged.

So, we must situate all of these in the overall assessment of our intervention. From there, we moved to other critical areas. As we are doing the rebranding, the rescue from insolvency, the engagement of the youth, we launched an ambitious and massive food production programme. As I am talking to you the capacity of our people to engage in food production, that is, farming has been multiplied in several folds. We initiated collaboration with the Nigerian Railway Corporation (NRC) for free freight of agricultural produce and commodities from Osun to Lagos and free freight of manufactured products from Lagos to Osun. During festivals, our citizens or friends, or residents are freely transported from Lagos to Osun and vice versa. That initiative was intended to spur and promote agricultural development or food security essentially. As our commitment to promoting functional education, we are redeveloping basic infrastructure all over our schools. We had a summit on education which led to the following agenda: (1) Basic infrastructure development. The school buildings are to be redeveloped completely. We have started that and the building programme. (2) We are of the view that a well nourished child is more prepared for serious learning than a malnourished child. So, for students in primaries one to four, we provide free meal properly prepared by certified and well-trained food vendors and the meal itself is very rich in mental building, physical development nutrients. I know that they are given carbohydrates, protein in fish and chicken and meat and fruits. So, the children are properly fed for good development of their body, mind and brain so as to be good adults from that formative age. They develop the capacity to learn and utilise the knowledge so acquired as adults when they get to that stage in life.

Road infrastructure is being pursued at a rate that is not common. Besides, we have a programme for urban renewal in virtually all the ancient towns. For your information, this state has the highest number of towns with over a thousand year history. So, all such ancient towns of the Yoruba history are already identified for renewal. The process is almost being concluded in terms of the consultancy for the renewal. We are set to upgrade one kilometre radius of each of the town centres to a standard modern town that would be the pride of all Yoruba and even the black race. It will be expensive but we are undaunted. We are almost concluding the general assessment of that.

On the issue of water, I read of a report involving the previous administration, I mean the Oyinlola government, where chemicals were bought in advance of 10 years and yet you are saying that some areas never had water for up to 50 years. What is the true situation?

By my own style and approach, I will rather not comment on the weaknesses and inadequacies of the immediate past administration. A Commission of Inquiry has been set up to review such misdemeanour. So, I will rather give the commission the opportunity to expose the atrocities committed by that administration than for me to spend my time over flogging a horse that is, though dead, very scandalous. Let us leave it like that. All I know is that the capacity of our water works has just been raised from what you can call zero level to about 50%. And work is on-going to have it to attain the full capacity for water production. What you have just said is true, that payments were made for 10 year-supply of chemicals in advance but the truth is that both the company that was so paid and those who awarded such ridiculous contracts never intended for the chemicals to be supplied. In the first instance, there was no functional water works to take delivery of such chemicals and the chemicals were never supplied up till now. It is a messy and quite disturbing scenario.

In health, we are making efforts as well to meet the challenge of achieving our goals. Our security is very important. For the first time in Osun State, we have a special squad dedicated to fighting crime by prevention and actual engagement of criminals. We have not reached the target we are anticipating but we have some APC’s (Armoured Personnel Carrier) to engage them. We don’t pray we have high scale criminal activities but in case, we don’t wait till when you are surprised by hardened criminals. As part of our efforts to prevent crimes, we have procured some APC’s as well as several patrol vans to prevent criminal disturbance of the security and stability of our state. Those are the things I can run through for now.

The second aspect of your question on whether I am satisfied or not; the truth is that when you compare what we have done with what was the practice in this part of the country and our region, I want to say things are really looking up. But in my own perception, we are still very far away from the target we have given ourselves even though we know that much has been done at the level of engaging the people. We have done a lot within the period of being in the saddle. But in terms of personal satisfaction, I will say I am yet to get to the level when I can say yes I am satisfied.

You rode to power on a popular mandate sealed with a legal victory that was massively celebrated by people of Osun and even beyond. Considering this scenario, there were high expectations by the people for your government to quickly deliver the dividends. Would this not make you to be impressionistic rather than being realistic in trying to meet up with these expectations?

I must tell you straight that I understood very well the sociological, political and economic basis for the expectations of the people on our assumption of office. Very clearly, I have no doubt in my mind why it had to be uproarious. Here are people who for 90 months were saddled with a government that never knew why it was there. A government that understood power purely from the authoritarian prism, and that left the society in a physiologically destabilized condition. The whole environment before our coming was harsh economically, harsh psychologically, harsh socially and harsh in terms of security. Things were extremely difficult to the point that any change would have been celebrated in a similar manner. Any change at all, whether vacuous or real would have been celebrated. And this we captured during the campaigns. We made promises that were not just seen as alternative but met the expectations of the people for a meaningful life. So, our assumption was long expected. As long as our travails lasted it did not in any way affect the zeal, aspiration and the desire of our people for a government that would be truly their own. If you look at our experience from the day we made the first move to engage the people of Osun in the process of change and confront the incumbent administration at that time, from that very day it was a battle. Our emergence therefore was a relief over bottled repression, caged aspiration and failed expectations. As for me, it was an opportunity to demonstrate the capacity to rule that was acquired over a long period of association with humanists, pragmatic executors of meaningful and purposeful government. If we want to outline what has been our approach to it, honestly we have endeavoured to domesticate all that we have acquired theoretically from our old humanist ideologues and the experience we garnered from our exposure in Lagos from one of the best public financial experts in Nigeria. So, it is a combination of these that had inspired us into this rescue operation.

I am not under any pressure or illusion of impressionism. I am focused, determined and quite conscious of the programmes that must be executed, projects that must be implemented and ideas that must guide both the programmes and the projects.

In your inauguration speech two years ago, you made copious references to the late Chief Obafemi Awolowo’s legacy. You extolled Chief Bisi Akande’s achievements in office. And you identified with Bola Tinubu’s performance in Lagos. Will your admiration for these people not affect the evolution of an Aregbe political model that will also be a reference point in governance in the future?

I don’t know how those other people whose performances I referenced in that speech perceive themselves, I can only tell you how I perceive myself. I see myself as a continuum for the progressive current in Yorubaland in Western Nigeria. And that current cannot be stagnated. If you could recall the title of my speech, it is about continuing the process. That actually was the theme of the speech. There was a point in time where the ultimate leader, Chief Awolowo, working on our own tradition and culture began a movement of modernisation along the welfarist model of development. People like Bola Ige, Olabisi Onabanjo, Lateef Jakande, Adekunle Ajasin advanced the process. This was what Baba Akande and Asiwaju Tinubu tremendously advanced as well.

I, therefore, must not situate myself outside that course of development. It is not about me. If history realises that I deserve annotation, I am not averse to it. But my own mission is the continuation of the progressive current that promises freedom for all, life more abundant. We must be clear on this. It is not about me, it is about a course of action that our people have taken for granted as their own tradition. Chief Awolowo only codified it with superlative government structure and administration. And successive leaders of the political tendency have been cushioning the envelope within the limit of time and resources available to them. It is that tradition that I am advancing. The mantra, the slogan that encapsulates the whole philosophy is the slogan of the AG in the 50’s that summaries it. So, whatever history decides to make of me in the process I am willing and ready but I know I will not be found wanting in total commitment to that tradition.

You have embarked on massive development of the state from all fronts, but people are entertaining fear that some of the projects may end up being abandoned. How do you assure them that this will not happen?

I don’t need to assure anybody. I believe we are factors in the historical process and will be marked down by our promises and deliveries. I am too committed to the ideals of progressivism. I am committed to firing the people to increase their production for wealth for themselves and societies. That I don’t even look at the possibility of failure in any of the things we are doing. I am looking to God for guidance and support. Outside the role of the Divine in guaranteeing success, I did not see why and how any of what we are putting together will fail.

I can understand why there could even be any anxiety. It is because for 90 months, a minimalist administration was there, looting the treasury, violently abusing the psyche of the people, and celebrating lacklustre performance. And as such, the people having been used to such poor governmental activities and performance will want to be afraid of government interventions. Those projects are quite daunting and ambitious but like I have said we are not in any way intimidated. We have put together a team of talented administrators, managers, leaders, well-groomed and highly experienced performers that God’s willing none of our projects will be abandoned.

Is your regional integration campaign a covert agenda for Yoruba autonomy within the Nigerian state or a clarion call for Yoruba awakening. Either way, what is your objective or agenda? And is it not a distraction for your government?

Well, I don’t know how it could be a distraction. In the first instance the states are mere administrative units for our people. The states are not atomised groups. But be that as it may, I will tell you that the Yoruba are the most homogenous ethnic nationality in Nigeria. No Yoruba man is limited to wherever history has found him. Be it in Abeokuta, Ikare, Ijebu-Ode, Omu Aran or wherever. All Yoruba are interrelated. You cannot find a Yoruba person anywhere in Yorubaland that does not have a link with some far-flung settlements and locations in the territory of the Yoruba. What that simply tells you is that we have multifarious relationships and connections. If for instance, the Yoruba man in Lagos will have his roots in Kabba, and the Yoruba man in Kabba is equally and effectively related to another man in Abeokuta, and so on, then it will be clear to you that definitely regional integration is an idea that is relevant for the region as well as the state. No state can really grow in this our sphere of Western Nigeria without collaborations with the others. Don’t forget that the people are already culturally linked, connected and customarily united. Then, there is no way you can prevent them from interacting because they have been interacting since the beginning of time. If you don’t see the clarity of what I am saying, I will assist by further elucidation. We are the most politically, crisis-ridden nationality in Nigeria. For federalism within ourselves, Yoruba fought among themselves not a war of enmity but a war of autonomy within the Yoruba federation for almost 100 years. Not independence against the other Yoruba sub-ethnic groups but at least to achieve ethnic determinism ditto for the Ijesha, ditto for the Igbomina, ditto for the Awori and other sub-groups. The people who for independence and freedom resisted over lordship from any of their kith and kin, no matter how superior, will readily combine to fight any aggressor with the same zeal. This internecine war for federalism however created such movements or has resulted in the mix-up so much that no Yoruba man can correctly or accurately claim affinity to just a particular space. All Yoruba are as related in wherever they are now as they are connected to several other locations within the Yoruba territory. So, that tells you clearly that the only way to mobilize effectively the Yoruba people for economic, political, social and even spiritual advancement is to encourage collective participation of all. That is what can effectively stir the spirit of the people for extraordinary performance. But that is on the academic level.

Is there any alternative to big market? Of course, none. The essence of globalization is market. The essence of the voyages of some 1000 years ago, the adventures of people like Columbus and Lander brothers were all about market. Mungo Park and others were looking for cheap raw materials and that tells you that market is the objective of all these adventures. If nations are established and developed to increase the economic potentials of the people, then regional integration can only enhance the capacity of the individual states for production, economic advancement, spiritual growth and general social advancement rather than being a limiting factor. It is for that reason that I said I am committed to promoting integration, mobilizing my people and encouraging my colleagues in other states to see it as the greatest way of rallying our people for serious development and growth.

Are you in anyway satisfied with the level of support from your colleagues because I can see that you sing the old Western Region anthem at all state functions alongside the national anthem. But I don’t think this is being done in some of these other states.

I have not seen anything from my colleagues to indicate that they are not committed. All of them are committed. I can confidently tell you that we are all committed. There might be local issues that could be responsible for some slow responses but I am very confident that once all these obstructions and obstacles are eliminated, we will all move at a pace that will surprise Nigerians. The need for integration is historical. I have told you we have Ago Ijesa in Abeokuta, Oke-Ijebu in Owo, Egbatedo in Osogbo. There is no part of the Yorubaland that is excluded from the others, we are homogenous entity. It is even beyond individuals. Regional Integration is an idea and a process that is naturally on. Nobody can stop it. Whoever attempts to stop it will be swept by the force of the idea and process. Really, it is a question of time before we all see a total embrace of this idea. People will trade, people will interact, people will be forced to determine what to produce there to complement and supplement one another.

What you should even realize is that Lagos today has turned to be a major focus of Yoruba economic growth. And that in itself drives integration. Lagos is a Yoruba territory regardless of the poor knowledge and understanding of some people. The activities happening daily in Lagos are enough to energise the process of integration and even Nigeria. Lagos supplies three quarter of what is consumed in the entire West African sub-region. The Yoruba speaking parts of Nigeria really have to concentrate on meeting fifty percent of that for it to be economically independent. So, how can you have such a resource within your territory and you want to be deviant? You don’t want to exploit it. So, both the history of our people and economic advantage, that is in integration, have made it an irresistible idea to the region. Whoever is not enamoured must be an enemy of the people.

But I believe you know we have two isolated cases: Ondo and Edo States. I know the Ondo scenario is political. Let us discuss the Edo scenario which of course is structural. The Midwest was a sub-component of the Western Region. In the Second Republic we had the LOOBO states with Bendel State also being integrated into the Western political configuration. But with the new geo-political arrangement that aligns Edo with the South-South zone, don’t you think there is a structural problem here?

I don’t even see any problem here. You know in the real and imaginary spheres of existence, there can’t be a strict boundary, you have overlaps. So, the question of Edo fits into that. Yes, Edo is presently in the South-South geo-political zone of Nigeria but the people of Edo know where they are in terms of the economy and their relationships. It is by far easier for the Edo man to be in Ibadan, Ilesa, Lagos than the other way round. What is the population of Edo people in the areas in which they are now tied to by the zonal arrangement? Besides the attraction of oil, what is it that connects Edo to those other people in the zone where it is now? It is not even Edo alone. The same thing goes for Delta. At the fruition of all these efforts, it will be clear where really the organic linkage between those who are in the marginal zone, just as there would be an overlap at our own end, so would there be an overlap at the other end. There is no fixed boundary. What determines where you will be in the ultimate territorial definition of connection will be cultural, economic and political. There are those who speak Yoruba in Edo and Delta. Just as it is clear that those who are not even speaking Yoruba have a lot of cultural linkage with us. So, besides the political linkage, there is cultural and spiritual affinity. And above all, history cannot be dismissed. That in Benin five out of ten up and coming people will want to be in Lagos and not in other places.

The issues are so clear, particularly on integration that anyone expecting a new thing that will contradict that project will simply be rejected by their people because economically that is the only way out, politically there is no question about what should be, culturally, it is obvious that we are a people united by history, by customs, by culture and values. It will be difficult for any current occupier of any political position to change that.

Still talking about your predecessor (Oyinlola), you seem to be pursuing your crusade against him with an inexplicable passion. What exactly is the problem? Is it a personal thing or simply an official issue?

In what way could it be personal? I have no personal problem with Oyinlola. Yes, I ought to because of the way he handled things here but in all honesty, I have nothing personal against him. Since I assumed office here, I have not in any way taken things personal with Oyinlola. There is nothing personal to him that I have not allowed since I came in. If I am passionate about my commitment to the people of Osun, it is because that is my nature. I don’t do things haphazardly. I am a total man. In the course of it my passion could be misinterpreted to mean animosity against anybody. I have nothing personal at all against him.

During the sitting of the Commission of Inquiry, you saw how he mobilised people to the venue. I could have done the same thing but I did not because there was no need to do so since it was not personal. I must confess though that I never liked his style of administration because it is shallow and without mission. I have no personal grudge against him. I see him as somebody who is eager to rule the people but lacks the capacity to do so. Such a person deserves our pity and sympathy more than hatred and animosity. I see beyond his limitation. He is indeed a man handicapped by circumstances to be a legend or a leader.

In your six-point integral action plan, the word “banishment” intrigues me. Is it that by the time your tenure is over, four years or eight years, there will be no poverty again, no unemployment again, no hunger again in Osun? Please explain.

That is the goal. Every serious leader must have ideals. Idealism is the lubrication of the engine of advancement. Without an ideal through which a leader can stimulate self and people, there can’t be growth and advancement. It is my desire to banish poverty, hunger, unemployment and other ills in the society. So how far I go in that mission will define me.

What has been the attitude of the elite and the opposition to the sweeping changes you are making in the state?

I know the people are so enthusiastic about us, our projects, our programmes, and our policies. If there is any source of joy, inspiration and fulfilment for me, it is the people. They are forever enamoured of us, supportive of our administration and defensive of our programmes. The people are the greatest source of encouragement for my administration.

I will not say the elite are less committed to us. A tiny few are still belly-aching over the loss of power and their irrelevance in the scheme of things. To those people you must expect such attitude because having been removed from reckoning; they are bound to be as aggrieved as they are. But with time, they will get to know that what exists today is not in any way comparable to the regime they first had. Now, there is more freedom, better security, the economy is gradually improving, life is getting better. There is no person in this state today that does not enjoy one benefit or the other from the government directly or indirectly including even the opposition. If your benefit does not come from the school children, it will come from the social services such as roads, security, or support for the Agba Osun. We reduced school fees in higher institutions by 50 percent. We are giving students bursary of almost 500 percent of what they used to get. Honestly, I don’t see any living human being in the state that does not have a benefit no matter how little from this administration. So, with that I don’t think we have any genuine opposition outside what I can call parochial sectarian interests.

Is your closeness to all the religious leaders from the state such as Pastors Adeboye and Ashimolowo and other notable Muslim and traditional leaders, and the practice of allowing the three religions to pray at state functions a strategy for promoting peaceful co-existence among the adherents of the three religions?

There is no effort at promoting unity, harmony and peaceful co-existence among the various religions that can be too much. But really, it is not anything extraordinary. Our people are never bigots. The Yoruba are never religious bigots. We are by nature tolerant of religious differences before the advent of modern religions. In the same home, you can see Osun, Oya, Sango worshippers, Christians and Muslims. That the various gods are traditional won’t mean they are the same. If that is the cosmogony of our people where would we therefore say we inherited our intolerance from? We are a people given to life in a very simple and beautiful form. We are not in any way attracted to tension, crisis and disequilibrium on matter of faith. The Yoruba have left spiritualism to the realm of Divinity. They don’t think it is the responsibility of man to superintend the choices of another in that regard. Our religious differences have nothing to do with politics. It is simply a reflection of the cosmogony of our people. Yoruba do not pretend to know the hereafter as much as they want to know the here and now. We will not want to provoke crisis based on what we don’t fully understand.